Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

news.ycombinator.com

61–70 of 118 posts

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#61

Not necessarily an identical thought to OP, but, anecdotally (n=1), my experience teaching the exact same course on Advanced Java Programming for the last 4 years has been that the students seem to be getting more and more cynical, and seem to think of programming as an art or as a noteworthy endeavour in itself less and less. Very few people have actually vocalised the "why do I even need to learn this if I can writ…

Has the school changed?

And can we assume that because AI has made it easy to solve some hard problems, other hard problems won't arise?

Not that I don't agree

And hasn't the internet generally added to this attitude?

And if it makes you feel any better, as someone around that age, this environment seems to have also led some of us to go out of our way to not outsource all our thinking

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#62

Not necessarily an identical thought to OP, but, anecdotally (n=1), my experience teaching the exact same course on Advanced Java Programming for the last 4 years has been that the students seem to be getting more and more cynical, and seem to think of programming as an art or as a noteworthy endeavour in itself less and less. Very few people have actually vocalised the "why do I even need to learn this if I can writ…

I taught intro to programming ~15-20 years ago. Back then everyone just copied each other’s assignments. Plus ça change

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#63

> The new way: The entire premise of AI coding tools is to automate the thinking, not just the typing I'd disagree. For me, I direct the AI to implement my plan - it handles the trivia of syntax and boilerplate etc. I now work kinda at the "unit level" rather than the "syntax level" of old. AI never designs the code for me, more fills in the gaps. I find this quite satisfying still - I get stuff done but in half the…

Don't you have to go over whatever the chatbot spurts? Isn't that part more boring than writing the code yourself ?

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#64
I absolutely love it. I find it empowers me more than ever before, and my satisfaction is at all time highs. I'm even building projects now (videogames) that I probably wouldn't have started before.

Here's where I'm at:

- Your subjective taste will become more important than ever, be it graphic design, code architecture, visual art, music, and so on for each domain that AI becomes good at. People with better taste will produce better results. If you have bad taste, you can't steer _any_ tool (AI or otherwise) into producing good outputs. So refining your taste and expanding it will become more important. re: "Yeah, I could've prompted for that too.", I see a parallel to Stable Diffusion visual art. Sure, anyone _can_ make _anything_, but getting certain types of artistic outputs is still an exercise in skill and knowledge. Without the right skill expression, they won't have the same outputs.

- Delegating the things where "I don't have time to think about that right now" feels really good. As an analog, e.g., importing lodash and using one of their functions instead of writing your own. With AI, it's like getting magical bespoke algorithms tailored exactly to your needs (but unlike lodash, I actually see the underlying src!). Treat it like a black box until it stops working for you. I think "use AI vs not" is similar to "use a library or not": you kinda still have to understand what you need to do before picking up the tool. You don't have to understand any tool perfectly to make effective use out of it.

- AI is a tremendous help at getting you over blockers. Previous procrastination is eliminated when you can tell AI to just start building and making forward progress, or if you ask it for a high level overview on how something works to demystify something you previously perceived as insurmountable or tough.

> Nothing feels satisfying anymore

You still have to realize that were it not for you guiding the process, the thing in question would not exist. e.g., if you vibecode a videogame, you start to realize that there's no way (today) that a model is 1-shotting that. At least, it isn't 1-shotting it exactly to your vision. You and AI compile an artifact together that's greater than the sum of both of you. I find that satisfying and exciting. Eventually you will have to fix it (and so come to understand parts you neglected to earlier).

It's incredibly satisfying when AI writes the tedious test cases for things I write personally (including all edge cases) and I just review and verify they are correct.

I still find I regret in the long term cases where I vibe-accept the code it produces without much critical thought, because when I need to finesse those, I can see how it sometimes produces a fractal of bad designs/implementations.

In a real production app with stakes and consequences you still need to be reading and understanding everything it produces imo. If you don't, it's at your own peril.

I do worry about my longterm memory though. I don't think that purely reading and thinking is enough to drill something into your brain in a way that allows you to accurately produce it again later. Probably would screw me over in a job interview without AI access.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#65

If programming is woodworking, using AI is ikea assembly except they packed most the wrong parts in the box so I have to deal with customer service to go back and forth to get the right parts and the hardware parts don’t always function as intended leaving me to find my own. It’s a different, less enjoyable, type of work in my opinion.

Plus the item you build may not be exactly what you initially requested, and you'll have to decide whether it's something you are willing to accept.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#66
Unfortunately you are asking your question inside an echo chamber.

Most commenters comment because it makes them feel good inside. If a comment helps you.. well, that’s a rare side-effect.

To truly broaden your perspective - instead of just feeling good inside - you must do more than Ask HN.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#67

No, it didn't. Or rather it did for run of the mill coder camp wanna be programmer. Like you sound you are one. For me it's the opposite. That's because I don't do run of the mill web pages, my work instead is very specific and the so called "AI" (which is actually just googling with extra spice on top, I don't think I'll see true AI in my lifetime) is too stupid to do it. So I have to break it down into several sess…

I'm curious: could you give me an example of code that AI can't help with?

I ask because I've worked across different domains: V8 bytecode optimizations, HPC at Sandia (differential equations on 50k nodes, adaptive mesh refinement heuristics), resource allocation and admission control for CI systems, custom network UDP network stack for mobile apps https://neumob.com/. In every case in my memory, the AI coding tools of today would have been useful.

You say your work is "very specific" and AI is "too stupid" for it. This just makes me very curious what does that look like concretely? What programming task exists that can't be decomposed into smaller problems?

My experience as an engineer is that I'm already just applying known solutions that researchers figured out. That's the job. Every problem I've encountered in my professional life was solvable - you decompose it, you research up an algorithm (or an approximation), you implement it. Sometimes the textbook says the math is "graduate-level" but you just... read it and it's tractable. You linearize, you approximate, you use penalty barrier methods. Not an theoretically optimal solution, but it gets the job done.

I don't see a structural difference between "turning JSON into pretty HTML" and using OR-tools to schedule workers for a department store. Both are decomposable problems. Both are solvable. The latter just has more domain jargon.

So I'm asking: what's the concrete example? What code would you write that's supposedly beyond this?

I frequently see this kind of comment in AI threads that there is more sophisticated kinds of AI proof programming out there.

Let me try to clarify another way. Are you claiming that say 50% of the total economic activity is beyond AI? or is some sort of niche role that only contributes 3% to GDP? Because its very different if this "difficult" job is everywhere or only in a few small locations.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#68
AI makes me a lot more adventurous in terms of the projects I take on. I usually end up having to rewrite everything from scratch after POC proves that my vision is possible and actually works - including the whole old-school RTFM.

It’s a huge help for diving into new frameworks, troubleshooting esoteric issues (even if it can’t solve it its a great rubber duck and usually highlights potential areas of concern for me to study), and just generally helping me get in the groove of actually DOING something instead of just thinking about it. And, once I do know what I’m doing and can guide it method by method and validate/correct what it outputs, it’s pretty good at typing faster than I can.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#69
post #5

> The entire premise of AI coding tools is that they automate the thinking, not just the typing. You're supposed to be able to describe a problem and get a solution without understanding the details. This isn't accurate. > So I feel pressure to always, always, start by info dumping the problem description to AI and gamble for a one-shot. Voice transcription for 10 minutes, hit send, hope I get something first try, if…

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying I don't know how to use planning modes or iterate on solutions. Yes, you still decompose problems. But what's the decomposition for? To create sub-problems small enough that the AI can solve them in one shot. That's literally what planning mode does - help you break things down into AI-solvable chunks. You might say "that's not real thinking, that's just implem…

> But what's the decomposition for?

To get it done correctly, that's always what it's been about.

I don't feel that code I write without assistance is mine, or some kind of achievement to be proud of, or something that inflates my own sense of how smart I am. So when some of the process is replaced by AI, there isn't anything in me that can be hurt by that, none of this is mine and it never was.

Re: Ask HN: Has AI stolen the satisfaction from programming?

#70
This is a topic I feel very strongly about and have given it some considerable amount of thought. Most of those thoughts ended up in this blog post: https://handmadeoasis.com/ai-and-software-engineering-the-co...

But the whole blog is a consequence of exactly this that you are describing.

Post reply on HN