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Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#61

Post by marcuskane2 »

nopelynopington wrote: post #56
ahartmetz wrote: post #8

I think there's less ageism in Europe - I'm German and in Germany and I don't hear the same stories as on HN about that. Pay is lower, though.

Maybe lower pay but you don't have to pay for healthcare there right?

Healthcare costs are essentially meaningless to tech workers in America.

My salary works out to roughly $120 per hour. I pay a $15 premium to insurance from each paycheck and a $20 fee to see a doctor. Even if I had some catastrophic car crash and spent months in the ICU, my maximum annual payment for all healthcare is capped at $5,000.

Healthcare costs can be a huge burden for low and middle-income Americans, but for a senior tech worker, healthcare is a tiny expense compared to income.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#62

Post by ahartmetz »

tjansen wrote: post #57
nopelynopington wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe lower pay but you don't have to pay for healthcare there right?

You do. It's about 15% of the first 5775 EUR of your monthly salary. Officially it's split between employer and employee, so on your payslip you see only 8% if you are not self-employed. Co-payments are very low though. Dental is partially included. Kids are included, wife/husband also if they are not employed.

Also worth mentioning that not heaving healthcare almost doesn't exist as a concept here. You have to be an illegal immigrant or something to not have healthcare.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#63

Post by ahartmetz »

ahartmetz wrote: post #62
tjansen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do. It's about 15% of the first 5775 EUR of your monthly salary. Officially it's split between employer and employee, so on your payslip you see only 8% if you are not self-employed. Co-payments are very low though. Dental is partially included. Kids are included, wife/husband also if they are not employed.

Also worth mentioning that not heaving healthcare almost doesn't exist as a concept here. You have to be an illegal immigrant or something to not have healthcare.

*having, oops

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#64

Post by giantg2 »

e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #41

I think the biggest thing that I haven't seen in another comment is that companies aren't being explicitly ageist, they just want cheaper labor and younger/less experienced people are willing to work for less money. I'm sure plenty of companies would be more than happy if you said "I have decades of experience but I'll take the salary of a junior position". Without something similar to a union or a change in laws to…

"I'm sure plenty of companies would be more than happy if you said "I have decades of experience but I'll take the salary of a junior position"."

I'm not so sure. I think many tend to see that as a too good to be true situational and toss your resume.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#65

Post by giantg2 »

vitaminCPP wrote: post #48
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #41

I think the biggest thing that I haven't seen in another comment is that companies aren't being explicitly ageist, they just want cheaper labor and younger/less experienced people are willing to work for less money. I'm sure plenty of companies would be more than happy if you said "I have decades of experience but I'll take the salary of a junior position". Without something similar to a union or a change in laws to…

This is match my experiences. Saddly, bad middle manager wants to hire a yesman (or women). Not an experienced engineer that will challenge them by highlighting to upper management the project technical debt, the lack of tests or the broken CD pipeline.

"Not an experienced engineer that will challenge them by highlighting to upper management the project technical debt, the lack of tests or the broken CD pipeline"

So... everywhere? Haha the tests are always garbage.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#66

Post by gtirloni »

mathgeek wrote: post #39
Zaheer wrote: post #12

As a proxy for this consider companies that have better benefits in areas that'd favor middle age / older populations. Example: Better maternity / paternity benefits: https://www.levels.fyi/benefits/Maternity-Leave/ Sabbatical programs often kick in after a certain number of years. A more structured program could indicate being more receptive to higher tenure / older populations: https://www.levels.fyi/benefits/Sabba…

Could you elaborate on why you’d consider new parent benefits to be a middle age and older perk? I would assume most new parents are in their 20s and 30s, making it most beneficial for new grads and folks not yet “grey haired”, so to speak. Anecdotally, I’m just past forty, and new parent benefits are no longer directly relevant to me.

Because delaying maternity is a trend. The median age is 27-30 in the US and you can expect people delaying further than that if they had other priorities.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#67

Post by nickd2001 »

vitaminCPP wrote: post #48
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #41

I think the biggest thing that I haven't seen in another comment is that companies aren't being explicitly ageist, they just want cheaper labor and younger/less experienced people are willing to work for less money. I'm sure plenty of companies would be more than happy if you said "I have decades of experience but I'll take the salary of a junior position". Without something similar to a union or a change in laws to…

This is match my experiences. Saddly, bad middle manager wants to hire a yesman (or women). Not an experienced engineer that will challenge them by highlighting to upper management the project technical debt, the lack of tests or the broken CD pipeline.

Possibly they might like a tactful experienced engineer who's careful not to make them look bad to senior management, but quietly fixes some of the more glaring issues and makes the whole team look good? The trick I guess is showing in a job application that you will behave like that.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#68

Post by nickd2001 »

jacknews wrote: post #51
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #41

I think the biggest thing that I haven't seen in another comment is that companies aren't being explicitly ageist, they just want cheaper labor and younger/less experienced people are willing to work for less money. I'm sure plenty of companies would be more than happy if you said "I have decades of experience but I'll take the salary of a junior position". Without something similar to a union or a change in laws to…

It's not just about salary. Of course the assumption is that they have to pay more for more experience. But it's also about perceived power and control. Younger workers are seen as more compliant, and many managers do not feel comfortable hiring underlings who are older.

Agreed, there are indeed managers for whom sadly its about control and compliance. However, there are also nice managers who just might feel mildly insecure having a more experienced person as a subordinate. Perhaps the onus is on the older dev to be sensitive to that and find a way to make the manager feel comfortable with sometimes being "managed up"? To know that the experienced person is a helpful ally not someone who'd undermine them. It may be something to be direct about in interviews. Obviously the interviewer is prohibited from raising the subject due to discrimination laws, but there's nothing to stop an applicant saying that they really don't mind having a boss that's a lot younger, and that they just aim to be of help.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a list of grey-hair-friendly IT companies?

#70

Post by Terretta »

999900000999 wrote: post #10

You want old finance companies. In fact any company older that 30 probably won't care. I'm not a grey hair yet, but I actively hate startups. We aren't changing the world, we're helping cat photos load 3 milliseconds faster...

> You want old finance companies. ... I actively hate startups.

Or consider some finance startups.

For us it's not age or title, it's ability to learn and apply, throughout a span of experience. We've found those who learned and applied while the commercial Internet was being made, the web being made, the cloud being made, are better equipped for learning and applying today's higher abstractions.

If you helped build the stuff of which it is made, you can better create new things on top of it.

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