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Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

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Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#61

Post by anthomtb »

dotBen wrote: post #7

In FAANG/larger companies they outline the management track and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is nothing wrong or unusual with what you are wanting. The problem is those roles are harder to find and grow into in smaller and even medium companies. Eng pay tops out unless you gain management responsibilities whereas at those large companies they will pay staff…

Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track?

I have worked at two Fortune 500 tech firms. They had separate career tracks where one was people management focused and the other nominally technical. At both firms the technical track was more like "technical management". None of the folks with high-level technical titles were committing code or doing hands on-technical work. The only difference with line management titles was less personnel responsibility. That is, on the technical track you would not generally need to deal with things like disgruntled employees, giving performance reports, sick time, etc.

IOW, the technical track was a lot like being a tenured professor at a major university. You have intimate knowledge of the research happening and you help may design the experiments. But you are not the one who sits down and runs the experiments.

I do not think the OP would be happy on a technical track in a major company, at least not as I have seen those tracks work. Rather, they would need to work with their line and project management such that they level out at a title where project leadership and decision making is not expected. Maybe that is what you mean by "staff engineer track." You get a Staff Engineer title (or Engineer 3, or Prinicpal or Senior - titles vary so much) and never get another promotion while still collecting merit increases and bonuses.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#63

Post by justanother »

tomhallett wrote: post #48
justanother wrote: post #45

After watching several of my friends become managers, directors, and VPs, I got FOMO and finally said yes to the management track about 25 years of software development. After about 3 years of engineering management, I was absolutely miserable, almost not programming at all, and spending 6 or more hours per day making sure I was camera-ready for the next Zoom meeting. Fortunately I had an S-Corporation that lived in…

What percentage of your time is spent on the sales/marketing side of pitching your consultancy services? RFPs/proposals/pitches/inbound/outbound? Where have you found the sweet spot with respect to the length of an engagement? The reason I ask - most of what you hear out there are stories of people being "freelancers" where the work is somewhat of a commodity (wordpress, webapps, etc) and they have to differentiate t…

My wife spends some time keeping my Linkedin account active, and I spend about 15 minutes a day maintaining a 'pipeline' spreadsheet and replying to inquiries about opportunities. If something gets to the introductory-call stage, I'll try and space them out so that there's no more than one per day. Generally I find that it takes about 30 days from introduction to closing a deal (sometimes longer). At the moment, I have multiple retainers and my plate is full, so I only do the minimum effort necessary to ensure that there's 4-6 opportunities somewhere in the pipeline, regardless of whether they close or not. Obviously if I weren't eating quite as well, I'd probably put at least double the effort into it.

As far as engagement length, my longest engagement is currently 6 months. Generally I don't have an issue with getting promoted into management as an independent contractor, as my loyalty is ultimately understood to be to my own company, and I make it very clear that I do not wish to become a manager. If those terms aren't acceptable, hey, I'm a contractor, everyone's welcome to terminate the relationship with zero hard feelings whatsoever, which is both an advantage in the current economic environment as well as the reason I need to maintain a pipeline of opportunities no matter how well things are going.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#64

Post by ctvo »

anthomtb wrote: post #61
dotBen wrote: post #7

In FAANG/larger companies they outline the management track and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is nothing wrong or unusual with what you are wanting. The problem is those roles are harder to find and grow into in smaller and even medium companies. Eng pay tops out unless you gain management responsibilities whereas at those large companies they will pay staff…

Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track? I have worked at two Fortune 500 tech firms. They had separate career tracks where one was people management focused and the other nominally technical. At both firms the technical track was more like "technical management". None of the folks with high-level technical titles were committing code or doing hands on-technical work. The only difference with line manag…

> Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track?

The consensus around what a staff engineer is is mostly captured here: https://staffeng.com/guides/

There's minor disagreements, but it's a good start. Ignore the book unless you feel compelled. It's a nice site to use to make sure we're all using the same terminology.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#65

Post by jacobmarble »

dbrueck wrote: post #36

Same boat as you, tried for a decade to figure it out, tried many of the suggestions here, eventually gave up and switched to starting small startups and then when they start to grow past a certain point, transitioning to someone else and then moving on to a new company. A lot of people are just really good at different stages of a company's growth. Me, I'm good at starting from scratch and going until we've shipped…

I'm curious, do you join startups as an early employee, or do you start new companies?

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#66

Post by dbrueck »

flashgordon wrote: post #58
dbrueck wrote: post #36

Same boat as you, tried for a decade to figure it out, tried many of the suggestions here, eventually gave up and switched to starting small startups and then when they start to grow past a certain point, transitioning to someone else and then moving on to a new company. A lot of people are just really good at different stages of a company's growth. Me, I'm good at starting from scratch and going until we've shipped…

Damn how does one find such gigs and do so in a sustainable way?

DIY, mostly. The first one that was truly my own I did by starting a dev-for-hire/consulting company and stashing some of the proceeds on the side to fund development of my first startup, and then from there it's self-sustaining.

For passing the baton to the right people, finding those people is partially luck to begin with and basic networking, but after awhile you know a good group of people that you've worked with in the past (or are friends of them). More than once I've handed things off to some of the same people - I'm ready to leave this gig right as they are ready to leave the prior one.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#67

Post by dbrueck »

jacobmarble wrote: post #65
dbrueck wrote: post #36

Same boat as you, tried for a decade to figure it out, tried many of the suggestions here, eventually gave up and switched to starting small startups and then when they start to grow past a certain point, transitioning to someone else and then moving on to a new company. A lot of people are just really good at different stages of a company's growth. Me, I'm good at starting from scratch and going until we've shipped…

I'm curious, do you join startups as an early employee, or do you start new companies?

Last few have been my own, but I heartily recommend first joining other startups as an early employee - you win if the company does well, but even if it doesn't, you can win by gaining many years of experience in a smaller number of calendar years.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#68

Post by [deleted] »

flashgordon wrote: post #58
dbrueck wrote: post #36

Same boat as you, tried for a decade to figure it out, tried many of the suggestions here, eventually gave up and switched to starting small startups and then when they start to grow past a certain point, transitioning to someone else and then moving on to a new company. A lot of people are just really good at different stages of a company's growth. Me, I'm good at starting from scratch and going until we've shipped…

Damn how does one find such gigs and do so in a sustainable way?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#69

Post by gedy »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #55
gedy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't know when Staff SE became pitched as this lofty leadership position like this, but first half of my career in multiple companies this was basically just next step up in IC positions after Senior SE, not leadership. Principal then after that.

When does IC (individual contributor) go from "how efficient/effective can you make the other ICs on the team?" I've seen ICs who say "my purpose isn't to code, it's to increase the efficiency of the other ICs on the team who do code, which makes me a 10x engineer, despite not coding, because I increase each team member's individual productivity which is collectively more than I could output individually myself"

Companies I've been in would call that out as technical leadership track, typically architect and above, but sometimes principal.

Re: Ask HN: Lead developer but I just don't enjoy management

#70

Post by oceanplexian »

Jemaclus wrote: post #60

Director-level here. It's great that you gave it a shot, but management isn't for everyone! In fact, when most engineers come to me and say "I want to be a manager," the first thing I say is "No, you don't." Not in a judgmental way, and not in a mean way, but more as a warning system to say "You want more money or responsibility, and management is one of many ways to get those things." The other thing I say is, "At s…

> So with all of that said, management is NOT "a part of career progression."

Legally, in order to be able to do certain things in a corporation you need to be a manager, director, or VP (i.e. sign contracts). A "Staff" is a made up term that is not recognized by any legal system or secretary of state, and that person will never be able fulfill vital corporate functions. Someone who is not a manager will never be privy to the full picture on people management, corporate finance, and so on due to issues with legal liability and corporate law.

I understand that there are smart people who want to "Do management without any of the responsibilities" but the real world doesn't work that way. If the ultimate rung of the career ladder is "Business Owner", management is definitely a required step on that journey.

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