Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry you lost me on blockain. Also IF any blockchain were to be used to persist stuff like this it's the biggest, most decentralized.
Corda is a special blockchain,it's based on need-to-know basis system. It means you can host your own node, and share your data only to the peers you want.
Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
61–70 of 80 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also agree with you for what it's worth. Even it is somewhat possible, it should be WAY more open and free. Like SSL it's not a luxury competitve edge, but basic modern day infrastructure
there are some initiatives for that, like CACert, a non-profit certificate authority. and ofc, there was GPG But they're not convenient for businesses : either they buy certificates for their employees, or they have them signed by the IT department, that provisions their key into any piece of corporate equipment. Few companies are into the community initiatives, especially when it comes to security. Also, CACert is n…
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
the person only did the signature page I have witnessed that as well. I made them scan the documents again. It doesn't even have to be a major change in a document to change the context entirely. Sometimes just changing and to or , or our to your can drastically change the agreement. That is easy for a busy lawyer to miss.
All a notary is doing is validating that the person signing a document has a government-issued photo ID that matches the name under a signature line. Nothing more than that.
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. My first few mortgages involved getting all the right people in a room together at the same time and signing hundreds of documents, the last two were some websites and clicking. The amount of time not lost having people watch me perform magic with the pen must have saved way more than DocuSign cost.
I was seeing a discussion the other week about automation and someone was saying that, as a consumer, not that much has really been automated. We still need a person to clean the house, do the yardwork, cook (yes you can get meal delivery but again in urban areas that's not new), etc. Even if we do have major appliances they're pretty similar to what we've had for decades. While that's true, it probably leaves out a…
Even passport renewal is available online now.
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
All a notary is doing is validating that the person signing a document has a government-issued photo ID that matches the name under a signature line. Nothing more than that.
Agreed, though there are copies of the documents made and given to all parties. If a document is changed after being notarized it can be proven in court what the original documents contained. A real notary will be tracking the number of pages, making copies of all of them and signing off what they witnessed. Everyone gets the signed copies and everyone provides their ID in person. A full chain of custody is simply no…
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#66LetsEncrypt exists because identity in SSL/TLS is only about domain name ownership, which is easily checkable using automated scripts if you handwave away the question of how to securely connect to that domain without TLS - ultimately it needs DNSSEC to be theoretically sound but in practice we cross our fingers and hope for the best without it.
The standard PKI is not a monopoly, it's the opposite. It's a competitive market with several players (vs SSL certs where LE just totally dominates due to being subsidized). CAs will sell you certificates usable for PDF document signing but they have to charge money because there is no automated way to verify your legal identity, so manual labor is required and that's expensive.
Therefore, the problem of how to build a LetsEncrypt for data is the problem of how to verify identities at scale automatically. There are two possible approaches you can use here, all of which require new software or infrastructure (which is why it hasn't happened).
1. Sign documents with your domain name! There is no specific reason you can't use an SSL cert to sign a document, it's just that the certs have flags in them that say they're not meant to be used that way. But a key is a key. You can write software that will override those checks and then use the regular standards like CMS, Authenticode or PDF signatures. This could work as long as you domain name was the same as your business/project name, or otherwise unique to yourself somehow. But judges would have to accept it. In the USA it's possible because the law doesn't say much about the exact nature of digital signatures, in the EU it's probably not because the Commission has spelled out in excruciating detail exactly how the PKI and signing specs must work.
2. Verify identities using e-Passports. Every e-passport contains a signed certificate holding your personal data signed by government root authorities, including a JPEG2000 encoded image. To automatically issue a certificate against such an identity, you need:
2a. A mobile app that can dump the NFC chip contents. This is done already, you can find such apps on the Play store (dunno about iPhones though). The data in the chips are public, it's not locked down.
2b. Some way to verify that the person with the public key is the same as in the passport photo. This can be done with face recognition/matching AI.
2c. Some way to re-assure people that uploading their passport contents to a remote server isn't a dumb thing to do. This can be done by running the CA and verification logic inside an SGX enclave, with open source clients (e.g. the mobile apps) that verify the enclave's remote attestation before uploading anything. The data will be encrypted and protected from the owner of the CA hardware.
Now you can create a PKI that auto-issues certs with people's public key, legal name, country and maybe photo in them. The enclave can also issue sub-certs that reveal less information or even certs that use a keyed hash of the passport number or something to give you an anonymous yet unique credential. Of course this new PKI won't be recognized by Windows, PDF viewers, governments or anything else that consumes signatures. That's step 2.
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#67Someone said it already: it's not a technical problem. This is a business problem, which means it's a social/psych thing. >= VP-level generally[1] don't recognize the signed doc as a signed doc. Unless they see that little A arrowhead in the top bar. W3C and Google aren't helping things here; by drip-feeding PMM into CSS, they've made it impossible to get a consistent HTML5-based print standard. Which could then be w…
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#68Someone said it already: it's not a technical problem. This is a business problem, which means it's a social/psych thing. >= VP-level generally[1] don't recognize the signed doc as a signed doc. Unless they see that little A arrowhead in the top bar. W3C and Google aren't helping things here; by drip-feeding PMM into CSS, they've made it impossible to get a consistent HTML5-based print standard. Which could then be w…
What does "PMM" stand for? Your comment seems to be one of the top results for it on Google[1], and I don't even have a guess for what it means. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22PMM3%22+w3c
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-page-3/
It's been dripping into @media and other bits and pieces, but there's no universal browser implementation yet, unless you just draw a line and say Paged.js IS the browser implementation.
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Presumably there's a irreducible amount of Extended Validation involved in qualifying as such a CA, though, no? Which would be the GP's point — you can't have a fleet of thousands of machines where each one individually, automatically, and anonymously registers to become its own signing CA.
If the target is legal recognition then you need to store your legally-recognized name and need to do what patio11 calls a hybrid system - part-offline, part-online verification. Also, IIRC there's a free government CA in Estonia that can sign documents, but of course you need to trust that Estonia is both not malicious and not incompetent.
Definitely possible in Belgium.
Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there something like Let's Encrypt for document signing?
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does "company title" mean? There is no delete account option.
What do you mean by "Company title" sorry ? Thanks for the feedback regarding the delete account option, I will transmit it.