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Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

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Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#61

Post by lostdog »

tempforquestion wrote: post #16
lostdog wrote: post #11

You just can't justify joining a startup between series A and when they switch to RSUs. The equity amounts are usually small enough to be worthless, and if they are big they become impossible to exercise. Angel investing a smaller amount is almost always a better tradeoff. In my last search, the series D+ and public offers were good, and the startup offers were just laughable. I couldn't justify going to any of them…

> I couldn't justify going to any of them just to make a bunch of other people rich. That is a nice way to put how I feel about my situation.

Yeah. Working for a quarter salary for a non-profit would be completely fine. Working for a quarter salary so a VC gets to keep another fraction of a percent? Nope.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#62

Post by enigmatic02 »

You raise a great point: does it make sense for highly compensated tech talent to bet on startups with their time / labor?

Ultimately, decision depends on what you are solving for. If it's purely about $ in the hand, startups never make sense.

If it's about participating in potential massive upside, investing is a perfectly good choice.

Difference between investing vs. joining startup is that you get to build stuff from scratch and operate more like a business owner. You'll do more and learn more in a shorter period of time. This makes a ton of sense IF you like that sort of adventure. Also allows you learn on someone else's dime before you start your own business

If you're joining VC-backed startup, the outcome they'll be shooting for is $1B+ exits, and you can get 2-3% equity if you join early.... so there's that

You can find comparable salary and equity offers here: https://topstartups.io/startup-salary-equity-database/

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#63

Post by spamizbad »

shuckles wrote: post #54
spamizbad wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this is the strongest argument is pretty damning. Most startups aren’t offering 1%. And that percentage will be diluted as the company works through various funding rounds. Likewise, if you quit, you generally have a limited window to exercise your options, and you have to shoulder the tax consequences when you exercise even if the company hasn’t had a liquidity event.

Many quality startups nowadays offer early exercise (tax-free) and long exercise windows. In addition, in this scenario you're leaving because you don't believe in the equity.

That’s very good news. I hope this trend continues.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#64

Post by mianos »

czhiddy wrote: post #19
mianos wrote: post #8

If you want to give up your $1M salary (seriously WTF) and you want to have much more control over a technology stack, sure. I halved my salary and worked in startups for quite a few years, some things were fantastic. For example, bootstrapping a bank from scratch. I left all that chaos for an established large firm and it totally sucked the life out of me. The chances of getting a million dollar a year income, in st…

$1M in W2 earnings isn't that unusual for senior engineers at companies that have seen significant stock growth. Suppose you had a $200k salary, $500k RSUs over four years, $50k/year bonus offer mid-2017. The last batch of stock vesting in 2021 would have pushed total stock adjusted compensation close to the 7 figure mark. NVDA has seen over +500% stock growth during that time. Apple has gone up close to 400%, GOOG o…

The chance of getting a million a year in stock equivalent is next to nil. These are extreme outliers, you can probably count the number of companies on two hands, and maybe name them all.

In terms of statistics, achieving this would be very 'unusual'.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#65

Post by mavelikara »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #43

Don’t forget dilution! I started with 1.X% pre Series A at a successful startup that is now valued at more than $1B, and my slice of the pie is down to roughly 0.2%, while the damn thing is still private after 10+ years and many, many diluting investment rounds. If I am lucky and the startup sells at some point, my annualized income will have been roughly $1M/y. So, it takes way more than $500M to break even! Each an…

> if someone offers me a job at an early startup I will laugh in their face. For me the future choices will either be my own startup,

If and when you found a company, how do you plan to handle the situation when an engineer laughs at your face when you try to hire them?

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#66

Post by _9omd »

tempforquestion wrote: post #35
jrochkind1 wrote: post #28

I suppose the other way to look at it is if your'e making $1M/year now, and living anywhere close to like a "normal" person, you have put enough away in the bank/investments that now you can easily afford to do whatever you want without worrying about money, without getting paid at all. You are in the position where you can choose what you want to do, with the money not even being an issue. So why even worry about th…

Well, I'm not happy where I am :) I have enough that would not be a problem if I made 20% of what I make today, but I don't have enough that money would never be an issue. I'm not trying to optimize for money, but I'm not going to ignore it. From what I'm getting from this thread is probably be a founder might be a better fit for me rather than a startup employee.

One question to think about is how much longer you'd need to work in your current role to never have to worry about money again. Say you were to cut your expenses to the bare minimum, invest aggressively, and stick it out there another couple years. Would you have enough to be financially independent (FIRE)? I'm not usually one to advocate sticking it out at a job you don't like, but it seems you have a real chance to never have to worry about money again if you're willing to live a non-lavish lifestyle. Just something to consider.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#67

Post by grumpyprole »

mavelikara wrote: post #65
deanmoriarty wrote: post #43

Don’t forget dilution! I started with 1.X% pre Series A at a successful startup that is now valued at more than $1B, and my slice of the pie is down to roughly 0.2%, while the damn thing is still private after 10+ years and many, many diluting investment rounds. If I am lucky and the startup sells at some point, my annualized income will have been roughly $1M/y. So, it takes way more than $500M to break even! Each an…

> if someone offers me a job at an early startup I will laugh in their face. For me the future choices will either be my own startup, If and when you found a company, how do you plan to handle the situation when an engineer laughs at your face when you try to hire them?

Maybe they'll be offered a better deal.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#68

Post by deanmoriarty »

mavelikara wrote: post #65
deanmoriarty wrote: post #43

Don’t forget dilution! I started with 1.X% pre Series A at a successful startup that is now valued at more than $1B, and my slice of the pie is down to roughly 0.2%, while the damn thing is still private after 10+ years and many, many diluting investment rounds. If I am lucky and the startup sells at some point, my annualized income will have been roughly $1M/y. So, it takes way more than $500M to break even! Each an…

> if someone offers me a job at an early startup I will laugh in their face. For me the future choices will either be my own startup, If and when you found a company, how do you plan to handle the situation when an engineer laughs at your face when you try to hire them?

Good question! I would likely hire completely remotely, Eastern Europe or so, there are still great hiring bargains out there. If that doesn’t work, I probably wouldn’t start a company, it is really that bad these days if you try to hire in Silicon Valley or US as a whole, in my opinion. I truly do not know what an early startup has to offer to a competent engineer living in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#69

Post by Graffur »

tempforquestion wrote: post #31
Graffur wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does someone at Senior staff/E7 level do?

Pretty much what @United857 said. I had a successful career, but I'm far of an outliner. I did have luck to be at the right place, at the right time. My day to day work is around planning, coding, and system design.

Damn, I can do all of that pretty well but earn more than 13x less

Re: Ask HN: Should an experienced engineer join a startup?

#70

Post by MaknMoreGtnLess »

tyre wrote: post #37

The number one rule — and I cannot emphasize this enough — is that you should not work at a startup for the money. The risk adjusted returns are not terrible if you know how to screen for good founders. It is, however, exceedingly unlikely that you make more than $10m over ten years — especially considering investment returns on your comp today over that time period. So it depends on what you want. Startups offer fle…

> For engineering, for example, big company employees drastically underestimate how much they rely on homegrown tooling.

Are you in engineering yourself?

I can assure you that people in sales, marketing etc also drastically underestimate how much they rely on homegrown or integrated tooling and support systems.

Sometimes, they don't even know what those tooling and support systems were.

They only learn when they either join a company that don't have those tooling and support systems, or start their own

> if you know how to screen for good founders

What are some questions you ask for screen for good founders?

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