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Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

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Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#61

Post by sgt »

kolinko wrote: post #43
gifwithaj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-American scree at the end here is hilariously inaccurate. The "inequality" has a kernel of truth- but that's why having a high salary in the US is amazing. I'm an average developer at an unglamorous company you've never heard of. I have unlimited vacation and lots of company holidays. Parental leave is full pay for 5 or 6 months, my monthly healthcare costs are the same as a single hour of wage if I was paid…

I don't know how you define Eastern Europe, but I've had a bunch of friends who moved back to Poland after working in Google in the Bay Area, claiming that the quality of life is better here. Ditto myself - I spend winters in SF, because of the weather and amazing people and the community there, but in most other aspects Warsaw wins. City cleanliness, restaurants & coffee places (sic), access to schools, transportati…

Pretty much everyone can afford a car these days. You're probably thinking of a new car.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#63

Post by DaveExeter »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #59
yardie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, as an American expat working in the EU, these countries have an extremely low level of churn. In most cases the only way to get a raise is to be hired away. So most developers put up with the annual CoL raise of 3-5%. Instead of changing companies every 2 years with a $10k-50k bump you stay 10 years in one company and eventually get a $10k over that period. I know most Americans feel its the strong…

What is the caution for an appartment?

caution bancaire (fr) = Bank guarantee (en)

Like a security deposit.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#64

Post by jlokier »

pcmoney wrote: post #60
jlokier wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some tech companies offer "unlimited vacation" these days as the official vacation policy. It's great if you feel you can actually take it, but most people don't. It generally means there isn't a defined amount or minimum amount, and everyone knows if you actually take a lot of time off, your output will not look as good compared with your colleages. The undertone of competing with colleages for recognition hasn't go…

I took 3 months off paid for parental leave and will have taken about 4 additional weeks this year and it has not hurt my performance reviews or career trajectory at all…

In some places, people may be wrong to worry about taking their unlimited vacation time how they would like to, but they do worry nonetheless.

At other places, more competitive perhaps, they may be right to evaluate that a dip in work output is noticed and nobody is taking into account the time off.

Anyway, without judging why, it appears to be a fact that at some places people take less time off when unlimited vacation policies are brought in.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#65

Post by binbag »

jlokier wrote: post #58
binbag wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlimited vacation?

Some tech companies offer "unlimited vacation" these days as the official vacation policy. It's great if you feel you can actually take it, but most people don't. It generally means there isn't a defined amount or minimum amount, and everyone knows if you actually take a lot of time off, your output will not look as good compared with your colleages. The undertone of competing with colleages for recognition hasn't go…

That's really interesting. I'm in the UK and the consensus is generally that the US doesn't give much holiday to staff and that Europe is more generous. I'd never heard of unlimited vacation before. Here the standard is 28 days plus the 8 or 9 public holidays, so about 36 days off per year. In Europe it's more, and often you must take them.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#66

Post by giobox »

binbag wrote: post #65
jlokier wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some tech companies offer "unlimited vacation" these days as the official vacation policy. It's great if you feel you can actually take it, but most people don't. It generally means there isn't a defined amount or minimum amount, and everyone knows if you actually take a lot of time off, your output will not look as good compared with your colleages. The undertone of competing with colleages for recognition hasn't go…

That's really interesting. I'm in the UK and the consensus is generally that the US doesn't give much holiday to staff and that Europe is more generous. I'd never heard of unlimited vacation before. Here the standard is 28 days plus the 8 or 9 public holidays, so about 36 days off per year. In Europe it's more, and often you must take them.

While this was much more true maybe 10 to 20 years ago, at least 28 days plus the approx 9 US public holidays is the minimum you should expect in a reasonable US SWE position. Many places offer better. Of course there isn’t the same level of legislative protection for holiday allowances as in the U.K. and there are some companies out there offering much less, but it’s increasingly rare in my experience.

I think working conditions relative to the USA have gotten significantly worse in the U.K. for a lot of professional roles over the past 20 years though - the pay offered in many U.K. SWE roles is often risible and the generally anaemic economy since the credit crunch arguably hasn’t helped.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#67

Post by KptMarchewa »

sgt wrote: post #61
kolinko wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you define Eastern Europe, but I've had a bunch of friends who moved back to Poland after working in Google in the Bay Area, claiming that the quality of life is better here. Ditto myself - I spend winters in SF, because of the weather and amazing people and the community there, but in most other aspects Warsaw wins. City cleanliness, restaurants & coffee places (sic), access to schools, transportati…

Pretty much everyone can afford a car these days. You're probably thinking of a new car .

Buying a car is only one part. You're probably true that pretty much anyone could buy a car, even if that's just an old Matiz. But also to maintain, insure and fuel it? No.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#68

Post by KptMarchewa »

yardie wrote: post #42
throwaway6734 wrote: post #17

>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada. How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?

In my experience, as an American expat working in the EU, these countries have an extremely low level of churn. In most cases the only way to get a raise is to be hired away. So most developers put up with the annual CoL raise of 3-5%. Instead of changing companies every 2 years with a $10k-50k bump you stay 10 years in one company and eventually get a $10k over that period. I know most Americans feel its the strong…

That does not feel true to me in Poland. I'd say average is close to what's expressed here on HN, about 2 years in a job. More junior people switch more often, and more senior less often - but also can switch pretty fast if the job is not a good fit. I don't think worker rights play a role here, because I've never seen software engineer being fired for a purely performance reason.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#69

Post by cherryturnover »

yardie wrote: post #42
throwaway6734 wrote: post #17

>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada. How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?

In my experience, as an American expat working in the EU, these countries have an extremely low level of churn. In most cases the only way to get a raise is to be hired away. So most developers put up with the annual CoL raise of 3-5%. Instead of changing companies every 2 years with a $10k-50k bump you stay 10 years in one company and eventually get a $10k over that period. I know most Americans feel its the strong…

>It can be as high as 20k-50k€.

Meanwhile in NYC they're knocking off few months rent and dropping the security deposits just to get people back there.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#70

Post by jlawer »

I would say in Brisbane, Australia the average pay for a Mid level is a $110k AUD package, with seniors being $130k AUD up. Keep in mind Australian listed salaries are often BASE. On top of this you need to factor an additional 9.5% superannuation (A kind of mandatory retirement savings) that must be paid. Project labour charge out rates start at $150 AUD an hour for a junior. Seniors can cost over $300 an hour. We are a high labour cost market.

Firstly most companies don't roll their own software, a lot of stuff is done with off the shelf products, and maybe some outsourced customization (especially in the web space). Custom software is typically only developed if 1.) there is a pressing need and 2.) there is nothing that can already fit the bill and 3.) it will result in a large enough business benefit to cover the cost.

Now there are things SMBs that do create software do to get better efficiency. Firstly teams tend to be smaller, often with a push for everyone to be "Full Stack". Originally this was Backend + Frontend, but this is often including DevOps, QA and more. Teams will often require everyone to work in every skill area at least at a junior level. Secondly there is a push in a lot of organisations for more then 38 hours of work a week in anywhere that is billing out staff.

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