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Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

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Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#61

This question pops up quite regularly on HN. I am always giving the same answer. We, HN crowd, presented with a problem tend to reach for a technical solution. Unfortunately, climate change is not an engineering problem, it's a political problem. IT will not solve it. The best we, as engineers, can do is the same as for anyone else - step out of our comport zone and join a climate movement. Extinction Rebellion is my…

All problems are engineering problems. In this case we haven't engineered a culture with enough people of engineering mindset at the top.

To say that something is a political problem is an empty statement, it attempts to pass the buck. Politics is decision making, as is coding. If we had decision makers who understood things like how the natural world works, we would have fewer problems with it.

I am even allowing a very broad definition of what engineering is: understand some dynamic well enough to intervene in it.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue the opposite, that its mainly a technical problem that has been coopted by a political movement. The technical problem should be (roughly), how can we continue to enjoy our lives and the standard of living we have achieved, and continue to bring more of the world to that level, in a way that is sustainable long term. There are lots of promising routes to making this happen, and we have already seen lots…

You know what will drastically reduce your standard of living? Climate change. Sure, it would be lovely to find a solution that would require no sacrifice from anyone. That is what everyone wants. It doesn't exist. If it did, do you think people have just been ignoring it? When it is exactly what everyone wants? No. Sacrifice is required, to avoid an even greater sacrifice in the future. And it is time for you to ste…

> It doesn't exist. ... No. Sacrifice is required ...

That is a very myopic view.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide more explanation?

It's not first time the experts make mistakes in their catastrophic predictions: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/50-years-of-failed-doomsday-e... And let's not forget our dear Al-Gore saying the ice on the artic would be vanished by 2014 :)

Hmm, for long distance prediction it might be wrong, but for short term predictions, everything seems to get worse. Microplastics, trash in the ocean, warmer ocean, bees dying, etc.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue the opposite, that its mainly a technical problem that has been coopted by a political movement. The technical problem should be (roughly), how can we continue to enjoy our lives and the standard of living we have achieved, and continue to bring more of the world to that level, in a way that is sustainable long term. There are lots of promising routes to making this happen, and we have already seen lots…

This is the best summary of why we're so well headed to a catastrophe. It seems that be definition, you won't accept any reduction of your standard of living. What if there's no way around it? Your standard of living relies on exploiting amounts of energy equivalent to several hundred slaves per person. That amount of energy can't be found in renewable sources only. How much of a slave master am I? https://jancovici.…

> That amount of energy can't be found in renewable sources only.

1.) overall humanity is still very inefficient at extracting productivity & comfort from energy. e.g. there is no inherent reason why buildings should need any energy flow to stay at a comfortable temperature. GP did not argue against reducing energy needs but against trying to make people reduce their quality of life.

2.) even at the current consumption I'm not so sure that 10Bn people could not be sustained. there's a hell of a lot of energy incident by the sun, it's just a matter of storing it where we have scaling issues. a whole bunch of battery tech ideas could help with that.

Overall I don't think we're that far from mass producing net energy positive houses (solar roof + industrial battery + near perfect isolation through e.g. low pressure zone in a double wall system). Inhabitants could either sell their energy on the market or use it for their transport needs.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#65

This question pops up quite regularly on HN. I am always giving the same answer. We, HN crowd, presented with a problem tend to reach for a technical solution. Unfortunately, climate change is not an engineering problem, it's a political problem. IT will not solve it. The best we, as engineers, can do is the same as for anyone else - step out of our comport zone and join a climate movement. Extinction Rebellion is my…

I would argue the opposite, that its mainly a technical problem that has been coopted by a political movement. The technical problem should be (roughly), how can we continue to enjoy our lives and the standard of living we have achieved, and continue to bring more of the world to that level, in a way that is sustainable long term. There are lots of promising routes to making this happen, and we have already seen lots…

> I would argue the opposite, that its mainly a technical problem that has been coopted by a political movement.

I don't see it. You just deploy some existing technology that is slightly more expensive upfront but cheaper in the long run. You turn off old technology that is not compatible with the goal. You can make the technology cheaper by simply putting more money into it and deploying it more. There is literally nothing left to do other than doing it. Power generation technology like nuclear, solar, wind will get cheaper the more you deploy. You cannot just wait it out and hope that it gets cheaper on its own. It gets cheaper precisely because you keep deploying more and more and more.

The same applies to electric cars. As you keep deploying them newer cars will be cheaper or have greater capabilities.

One day people will wonder why we even insisted on the old way of doing things. It's purely about cooperation and thus politics.

>But there are people that want to move backwards, to reduce our standard of living, to reduce our freedom to make our own choices, and to enforce some kind of forced mediocrity that will help ration our natural resources. I reject this (and weaker versions of it) and believe there is more to be gained by focusing on progress than on telling people what to do.

Obviously, progress is the only answer if we want a solution for everyone. There are lots of people who simply are indifferent. If you give them a good enough compromise they are going to switch over to your side. If you tell them that they are bad people and should change their behavior they are going to do nothing, find reasons to tell you that you are wrong or just join the opposite side because they hate being criticized for something that they do not have influence over and now get to criticize you in return.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what will drastically reduce your standard of living? Climate change. Sure, it would be lovely to find a solution that would require no sacrifice from anyone. That is what everyone wants. It doesn't exist. If it did, do you think people have just been ignoring it? When it is exactly what everyone wants? No. Sacrifice is required, to avoid an even greater sacrifice in the future. And it is time for you to ste…

> It doesn't exist. ... No. Sacrifice is required ... That is a very myopic view.

No, what is myopic is demanding that a problem be solved without you having to put any effort into it yourself. To demand that things carry on as normal in the face of oncoming catastrophy.

That is myopic in the extreme.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#67
post #45
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats why there is a need for a global Carbon Tax/Pricing System. This would internalise the cost of pollution and make engineering solution more important from a market perspective.

Why not simply make it illegal to exploit fossil fuels? The result is the same, except that making it illegal has a certain result, as opposed to a tax that is less direct. Of course it's very hard to make it illegal, but I don't think it's easier to enforce a carbon tax that actually works.

Making things illegal is prone to micromanagement. If there are ten thousand industries dependent on CO2 emissions how are you going to pick the non essential ones and only ban the ones that are truly bad for the environment? What's the likely hood that officials will simply misjudge a specific industry? (maybe even on purpose?)

The reasoning behind the carbon tax is simply that every participant can make a decision for themselves. "Do I need CO2 emissions to run my business?" "Does a different business have a greater need to emit CO2 emissions?" This is the type of thinking one is trying to encourage with the introduction of a CO2 tax.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#69

You are passionate about a "catastrophe" that doesn't exist: https://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2020/6/29/on-beha...

I'd be cautious about taking Shellenberger's conclusions as fact. He's not a climate scientist. His writings will basically lead to denialism rather than action and moderation [0] For example he says to save the environment we should be producing more meat - this is in complete contrast to this 5 year Oxford University study [1]. This is a good summary (by a climate scientist) arguing against Shellenberger's claims.…

And here's a long list of failed apocalyptic predictions by scientists: https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-poca...

Nobel winning economist Paul Krugman wrote that by 2005, it would become clear that the Internet's effect on the economy is no greater than the fax machine's.

Climate scientists can model the climate to a certain degree but they're not all-knowing oracles. They are not qualified to predict future societal collapses, wars or even famines. The idea that a gradual 2.0 °C temperature rise spread over decades would necessarily cause such things just doesn't pass the smell test.

Re: Ask HN: IT jobs fighting against climate catastrophe?

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't exist. ... No. Sacrifice is required ... That is a very myopic view.

No, what is myopic is demanding that a problem be solved without you having to put any effort into it yourself. To demand that things carry on as normal in the face of oncoming catastrophy. That is myopic in the extreme.

Not sure who you're responding to that advocated for that. But the closest I can see is the original post suggesting the that people join a protest group. Lobbying the government to force others to behave as you want, and not proposing an actual solution, is pretty close to demanding that a problem be solved without putting any effort in yourself.
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