Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#61

Post by 0xy » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

0xy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London beats any European city by a substantial amount, even including cost of living. I don't see why that would change. Switzerland as you point out has similarly high wages. I can't see innovation, talent or companies moving to the EU at any stage. It's a regulatory horror show and has massive brain drain to places that actually pay developers reasonable wages. Developers in Sweden are paid the equivalent of 51k U…

Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have a much healthier startup scene than the UK does. You can also go further afield and explore places like Lisbon, which have a growing buzz. In some ways they have a much healthier startup scene than SV does. You won't earn $400k - guaranteed until the restructuring and breakup layoffs hit - but you will be happier and less stressed, and your kids will be too. And you won't be living i…

I don't think you can speak for everyone when you claim not to care about literally millions of dollars in lost opportunity by not living in a country that doesn't shaft you.

It's millions. The delta between the average US salary and the average EU salary is gigantic, and if invested in a conservative investment portfolio consisting of index funds means by choosing to live in the EU you're willingly giving up many millions of dollars by time you're in retirement.

When I'm retired, I don't want to be broke and penniless and I certainly wouldn't be thinking that the free healthcare I received was worth the amount I was scammed.

On what planet is healthcare worth many millions of dollars? It's not worth it. You're better off by any calculation in the US. Substantially so.

51k when you're doing the same stuff that someone in the US is making 175k for? You're being robbed in broad daylight.

To put it another way, consider that a senior level developer in Sweden makes substantially less than a fresh grad in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#62

Post by lagolinguini » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

orange_tee wrote: post #40

pasabagi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression US salaries usually come out way ahead for software people (in other fields, not so much). The only point where it starts to get questionable is when you consider stuff like, how much would you pay to live in a city that doesn't have needles all over the sidewalks, or, what is the value of living in a society that isn't brutally unfair and visibly dystopian? Personally, I put a pretty high value…

US is a nation of immigrants where you can basically fully integrate in a matter of months. In non-English speaking countries this is impossible. If you put a lot of weight on fraternity and equality you have to consider that if you move to France or Germany you will always be "that foreigner who moved here". Just something more to consider. Although I do agree also with your post.

While this might be true, this is not what I've experienced. I lived in the US for 7 years. I went to school there, worked there and paid taxes. But I had to leave because I didn't get the H1B visa. So while people couldn't tell I was a foreigner, as far as immigration is concerned, I was always a foreigner. Even if I would have gotten the H1B visa, as someone born in India, it would have taken me 20+ years to get a green card...

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#63

Post by ac2u » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

mfDjB wrote: post #15

I moved to London to do a startup in December 2019. All I can say is do not do this. The government during covid has been horribly inefficient, I just received my NHS ID in the last month (taking upwards of a year to process, during which time they denied me covid testing after I had the necessary symptoms) and I received my NINO 6 months after moving here, however now with covid they aren't even processing these any…

>You will also encounter strange socio-economic effects that you would not see in other places, for example being an engineer and starting a startup here is viewed as a negative while being a business major is a positive.

Your experience might be a bit more localised to the part of the UK you're in than you think rather than being a UK thing. I've never found people care enough to provide negativity or positivity regarding where you've chosen to specialise your education in most cases.

>In terms of brexit, any sort of gains for a startup will be possible only if the British government allows them to be

Agreed. Lack of access to capital and the lack of tax planning for anyone but the rich holds the UK back compared to the states. I don't agree with much the current government did, but one sentiment that Cummings expressed that was correct was that when novel tech gets bought over by US giants (eg Deepmind), is a failure on the UK's part. They're essentially allowing all the future upside to be exported.

Not that I blame anyone that accepts a buyout offer, if they didn't, then there'd probably be no upside to capture at all due to lack of risk-taking private funding.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#64

Post by chrisan » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

bvcvbuiy wrote: post #38

marcinzm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>as underestimating some built-in benefits of other countries like free healthcare. If you're at FAANG (which the original post was talking about) then there's little advantage of free healthcare imho. You get top of the line company paid for healthcare. You can see a top specialist in a week with no referrals needed and someone almost as good same day.

That is a given for every resident in most European countries. Edit: it seems I am wrong. I commented a bit too fast.

Even if it were a given, the point I believe they were trying to make was in addition to the much larger salary, they ALSO have good healthcare

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#65

Post by orange_tee » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

lagolinguini wrote: post #62

orange_tee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is a nation of immigrants where you can basically fully integrate in a matter of months. In non-English speaking countries this is impossible. If you put a lot of weight on fraternity and equality you have to consider that if you move to France or Germany you will always be "that foreigner who moved here". Just something more to consider. Although I do agree also with your post.

While this might be true, this is not what I've experienced. I lived in the US for 7 years. I went to school there, worked there and paid taxes. But I had to leave because I didn't get the H1B visa. So while people couldn't tell I was a foreigner, as far as immigration is concerned, I was always a foreigner. Even if I would have gotten the H1B visa, as someone born in India, it would have taken me 20+ years to get a…

Yes of course I by no means implied that there are no obstacles involved in immigrating to the US. The OP was talking about the more social aspects so I wanted to remark about an often overlooked aspect.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#66

Post by foldr » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #22

I saw a list of European unicorns (on HN in fact I think) and probably about 2/3 were UK/London based. That’s right now. The other ones are scattered around, so this might be your best bet in this part of the world. As another comment says, you’ll mostly get political comments, so here goes: UK universities, while still very good, are dropping quite significantly in various league tables since Brexit. This is for a r…

>On the flip side, finance was thought to leave London en masse, and didn’t

It's a bit early to say, isn't it? Finance is still working under temporary arrangements. Most of the regulations regarding services remain to be negotiated.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#67

Post by pja » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

jjgreen wrote: post #33

trebligdivad wrote: post #27

Why London as opposed to Cambridge or some of the other areas with a lot of tech?

Cambridge is quite a nice town, but is is a small town; 20 pubs, 6 Indian restaurants, 1 cinema [1], not really comparable. [1] not been there for a while, those numbers may well have changed

I think your numbers are off by about a factor of 3-5 or so.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#68

Post by marcinzm » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #30

djaahk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel like salary comparisons are a little biased by a slightly US-centric definition of a comfortable lifestyle (e.g. including a car, parking, bigger house requirements, etc) as well as underestimating some built-in benefits of other countries like free healthcare. Are there good sources out there that would afford a holistic cost comparison of a typical London lifestyle (Tube, 1-bedroom in Zone 1-2, weeken…

I get the impression US salaries usually come out way ahead for software people (in other fields, not so much). The only point where it starts to get questionable is when you consider stuff like, how much would you pay to live in a city that doesn't have needles all over the sidewalks, or, what is the value of living in a society that isn't brutally unfair and visibly dystopian? Personally, I put a pretty high value…

>If you're planning on living in a kind of bubble, and just ignore the wider social context, you don't really need to live in a functioning society.

Your example is also about a bubble. It's not social context but your own personal sense of happiness that you're talking about as I see it. You can have clean streets and little crime but be a dystopian society. Singapore and Japan come to mind. Muslim refugees in France would see society very differently than a native french person. Talking about others living in bubbles seems to me to be just a way to makes oneself feel better about the bubble one lives in themselves.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#69

Post by lagolinguini » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:10 PM UTC

orange_tee wrote: post #65

lagolinguini wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this might be true, this is not what I've experienced. I lived in the US for 7 years. I went to school there, worked there and paid taxes. But I had to leave because I didn't get the H1B visa. So while people couldn't tell I was a foreigner, as far as immigration is concerned, I was always a foreigner. Even if I would have gotten the H1B visa, as someone born in India, it would have taken me 20+ years to get a…

Yes of course I by no means implied that there are no obstacles involved in immigrating to the US. The OP was talking about the more social aspects so I wanted to remark about an often overlooked aspect.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I just wanted to point out that often this aspect is also overlooked when it comes to immigration in America. The social aspects mean nothing to me when I could never be certain about my status in the US. In fact if I'd not integrated as much socially, I'd probably be much happier in life right now after having been forced to leave. On the other hand I completely agree with you about the social aspect. I'm worried about how I will fit in to Europe once I move there, and whether I will always be considered a foreigner. I'm trying to convince myself that it's the better choice for me since I was forced to move there. But at the end of the day, I can't help thinking that Europe just doesn't have the same diversity and open culture as California did when I lived there. Who knows, maybe I will be pleasantly surprised when I go there. However, like I said before, in Europe I have certainty about my immigration status. As a highly skilled migrant, I don't have to keep worrying about "What happens if I don't get the H1B visa", "It's been 10 years, and I still haven't received the priority date for my Green Card".

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#70

Post by pasabagi » Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:35 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #68

pasabagi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression US salaries usually come out way ahead for software people (in other fields, not so much). The only point where it starts to get questionable is when you consider stuff like, how much would you pay to live in a city that doesn't have needles all over the sidewalks, or, what is the value of living in a society that isn't brutally unfair and visibly dystopian? Personally, I put a pretty high value…

>If you're planning on living in a kind of bubble, and just ignore the wider social context, you don't really need to live in a functioning society. Your example is also about a bubble. It's not social context but your own personal sense of happiness that you're talking about as I see it. You can have clean streets and little crime but be a dystopian society. Singapore and Japan come to mind. Muslim refugees in Franc…

You might be right - that said, there's no comparison when it comes to poverty between where I live now (east germany) and where I come from (London). Poor people in London are simply far more poor, even though London is far more wealthy than east Germany.

What I was initially pointing at was, if you think about the portion of pay one gets, and the portion of pay that goes to the state, I think high taxation is often worth the money in terms of quality of life, because it delivers goods that are simply beyond anybody's budget otherwise. Jeff Bezos can't go on a 4am walk through LA without a shadow of worry, but I can do that in my city. That's a tangible freedom that I can buy with my paycheck, and he cannot really buy with his.

Obviously money on its own doesn't solve deeper issues - and Europe has a lot of problems, especially around questions of nationality and belonging. But I think in the narrow sense, of what you get for what you pay, high tax - welfare state societies are generally competitive even for very high earners, just because they deliver a lot of things that you literally can't pay for, no matter how rich you are.