Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#61

Post by munchbunny » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:48 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #18

johnny313 wrote: post #5

No one is thinking about you as much as you are. At the end of the day, people are reacting to their own feelings, values, and ideas as much or more as they are to anything you said. Taking yourself out of the debate - no matter how personal it feels - is always a good first step.

I had to read this twice. But just to confirm what you mean: We should take our personal feelings out of a debate -- but surely we must still remain in the debate?

That might be what the parent poster meant, but I think you should consider the opposite as well: debating is itself the source of the personal feelings. People will generally remember the fact that you debated (almost-argued) more than they will remember your arguments. If you want to keep someone open to what you have to say, debating is one of the more counterproductive things you can do.

Instead, if your goal is persuasion, you should remember that, regardless of how we want the world to work, persuasion in practice is as emotional as it is intellectual.

The thing that never happens when real ideas are at stake is that someone manages to deliver an argument so devastating that the other side reconsiders. I've never seen it happen. What I have seen all the time is gradually shifting someone's thinking until they eventually come around.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#62

Post by iandanforth » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:49 AM UTC

technofiend wrote: post #55

I hate to admit it but one of my bosses taught me that building consensus is a double edged sword and it can be used as weapon. Up until working with him I naively assumed we could all get in a room, hash out our technical differences and agree to a solution. That only works when everyone is (from your perspective) not a bad actor. But how do you deal with an Executive Director who will bald-faced lie and say whateve…

Can you provide a detailed (even if fictitious) example?

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#63

Post by steve_adams_86 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:51 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #15

I was homeschooled from grades K-12 (for those outside the U.S. essentially from age 5 to 18) which in and of itself leads to poorly developed social skills. But I also have ADD. One of the symptoms of ADD is poor impulse control and rejection sensitivity which leads to issues with "emotional intelligence." So I would advise anyone, if you suspect you may have adult ADD, talk to a physciatrist and figure it out. Fixi…

I'll second this. I spent roughly 2/3s of my life in a terrible ADD vortex of self loathing, hiding, and genuine depression. My sense of self had diminished to a scary degree towards my thirties because I was convinced I was a broken person but had this job to upkeep, kids to raise, a relationship to maintain. I had given up on understanding what was wrong with me.

Then I realized my kid had an attention disorder and decided to research it. I realized I fit the description as well. I discovered this is often passed from parent to child and I had no idea how to navigate this myself or how to help my kid... Who I gave this thing to in the first place.

In the short years since I figured this out, talked to professionals about it, and generally started setting myself up for success instead of living moment to moment running from failure... Things have changed such an incredible amount. ADD will never go away, I'll always be like this, but now I have some sort of foundation and understanding to work from. I'm motivated to overcome it so I can help my kid, too. There's no way he can have the experience I did.

It's so worth talking to someone. I suspected something was wrong for 10-15 years and never did anything and I seriously regret it. What if I had an extra ten years of being aware of this thing? Would my family be happier? Would I own a home already? Would I be happier and have better self esteem? Probably yes to everything. Don't delay, take care of yourself.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#64

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:52 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #18

johnny313 wrote: post #5

No one is thinking about you as much as you are. At the end of the day, people are reacting to their own feelings, values, and ideas as much or more as they are to anything you said. Taking yourself out of the debate - no matter how personal it feels - is always a good first step.

I had to read this twice. But just to confirm what you mean: We should take our personal feelings out of a debate -- but surely we must still remain in the debate?

If you're debating you've already lost the debate. The effective way to win a debate is not to have one. You either convince the other person the idea was theirs, which is easier than it sounds, or you get them to argue your point for you at which point it is their idea. Learning how to do this takes effort and a willingness to realize how little one truly knows about the art of effective speaking. You'll also begin to recognize when other people are manipulating you using this method. A really quick trick for this method is to start a conversation with something the person said and then say that what they said gave you your idea. Very few people won't take the compliment, you'll immediately validate their who ego and intelligence, and they'll immediately feel like you owe than something which means they'll want to be around you more. A good book as a primer for this is Influence by Cialdini.

Here's the kicker it even works when the person knows you're doing it. So it was good you brought this idea up, it allowed us to have a really good conversation about it and explore it more fully.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#65

Post by onion2k » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:54 AM UTC

jamesrcole wrote: post #54

randcraw wrote: post #16

People are 100X more sensitive to negativity than positivity. So if you feel the need to say something negative, either wait for someone else to say it so you can laugh and agree, or say nothing at all. Likewise, offer your opinion as little as possible unless it's positive or you've been explicitly asked for criticism. And even then describe how the thing could be improved, not how it sucked or how much.

If everyone followed that advice, nobody would ever express their opinion and nobody would ever say anything negative. Being able to critique things is really important. It's essential for identifying problems, developing good ideas, and improving systems and products and well as people's personal development. You say to explain how things could be improved rather than talk about the problems with them. The problem w…

Pixar use a technique called "plussing"[1] where any critique given is framed as a positive constructive addition. Eg you accept something for what it is and suggest a way to improve it rather than saying it's bad or wrong. I've tried to use it, and continue to try, but it's hard work. When I manage to do it properly it works very well.

[1] https://intenseminimalism.com/2015/pixars-plussing-technique...

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#66

Post by shostack » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:54 AM UTC

technofiend wrote: post #55

I hate to admit it but one of my bosses taught me that building consensus is a double edged sword and it can be used as weapon. Up until working with him I naively assumed we could all get in a room, hash out our technical differences and agree to a solution. That only works when everyone is (from your perspective) not a bad actor. But how do you deal with an Executive Director who will bald-faced lie and say whateve…

Can you share more details of the situation? I'm curious what they were lying about and how you pinned them down.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#67

Post by darkmighty » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:55 AM UTC

randcraw wrote: post #16

People are 100X more sensitive to negativity than positivity. So if you feel the need to say something negative, either wait for someone else to say it so you can laugh and agree, or say nothing at all. Likewise, offer your opinion as little as possible unless it's positive or you've been explicitly asked for criticism. And even then describe how the thing could be improved, not how it sucked or how much.

Negative comments are usually much less useful also. They are usually one of those:

1) Animosity (the person dislikes you)

2) A broad description of a mistake

3) Different taste

Only (2) can be somewhat useful, although (3) is permissible sometimes I guess. Often the person already knows he might be doing something wrong or not good enough; simply pointing it out leads nowhere, knowing what not to do still leaves unancessibly vast possibilities.

It seems much better to directly (and probably privately) suggest alternatives, offer solutions, etc.

I like this opinion piece about this:

http://fanaro.com.br/negative-language-why-you-should-avoid-...

Diverging should be discussed under some circumstances though, specially if you clarify your rationale (or when discussing unconsequential things like foods and such).

Overall pointing out solutions and affirming good values, qualities, outcomes if much more useful (and has the bonus of being charitable, even affectionate).

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#68

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:59 AM UTC

asveikau wrote: post #30

malux85 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you make the high-ups realize who the a-holes are

It can be tricky when the high-ups are a-holes.

Sadly the higher up you go, the higher the likelihood you'll be dealing with sociopaths and psychopaths. While sociopaths can be very effective executives, psychopaths should always be watched it for as they thrive on the drama and power. Sociopaths just lack empathy which makes them highly useful in making emotionally difficult decisions. For a Star Trek reference sociopaths act like Vulcans when it comes to empathy. Psychopaths act like Romulans in nearly every situation. Don't get emotionally invested in either.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#69

Post by austhrow743 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

jamesrcole wrote: post #54

randcraw wrote: post #16

People are 100X more sensitive to negativity than positivity. So if you feel the need to say something negative, either wait for someone else to say it so you can laugh and agree, or say nothing at all. Likewise, offer your opinion as little as possible unless it's positive or you've been explicitly asked for criticism. And even then describe how the thing could be improved, not how it sucked or how much.

If everyone followed that advice, nobody would ever express their opinion and nobody would ever say anything negative. Being able to critique things is really important. It's essential for identifying problems, developing good ideas, and improving systems and products and well as people's personal development. You say to explain how things could be improved rather than talk about the problems with them. The problem w…

Without commenting on whether I agree with their advice or not, I just want to point out that "if everyone x then y" is a poor argument against x.

Plenty of the things we do that are good for us would turn out poorly for us if everyone did them. Plenty of the things we do that are good for the groups we belong to would turn out poorly if everyone in the group did them.

Re: Ask HN: What people skills do you wish you learned earlier in your career?

#70

Post by swagasaurus-rex » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

jamesrcole wrote: post #54

randcraw wrote: post #16

People are 100X more sensitive to negativity than positivity. So if you feel the need to say something negative, either wait for someone else to say it so you can laugh and agree, or say nothing at all. Likewise, offer your opinion as little as possible unless it's positive or you've been explicitly asked for criticism. And even then describe how the thing could be improved, not how it sucked or how much.

If everyone followed that advice, nobody would ever express their opinion and nobody would ever say anything negative. Being able to critique things is really important. It's essential for identifying problems, developing good ideas, and improving systems and products and well as people's personal development. You say to explain how things could be improved rather than talk about the problems with them. The problem w…

People might be sensitive to negativity, but positivity can absolutely change somebody's outlook.

It's hard to time it just right but when somebody does, on their own, something that they previously would not or could not, praise will work wonders.