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Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

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Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#61

Post by Shorn »

lwansbrough wrote: post #14

This probably isn't the immediate answer you're looking for, but I've found a lot of value in a book called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss (no affiliation, just loved the book.) It provides practical guidance on the subject of negotiation. However, in reading it you'll find that a lot of these rules of negotiation apply to broader aspects of life. The author, Voss, was a former negotiator for the FBI and wa…

I'm suffering serious Frequency illusion with Chris Voss - I feel like his stuff is popping up everywhere around me (ended up watching two videos yesterday).

I find myself actively fighting the impulse to read the book. I can't decide if I'm a savvy, advertising-aware consumer; or maybe I'm just another sucker.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#62

Post by toomuchtodo »

noir_lord wrote: post #50
jmalicki wrote: post #11

There's literally a whole book by a Stanford biz school professor about this exact subject. One of my pet favorite tips: pretend you're a research psychologist observing a patient with a rare mental disorder (doesn't solve all of the problems, but at least helps to cope). https://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Survival-Guide-People-Treat/d...

My partner works in a total cluster fuck of an office with some horrible people (she won't quit without another job even though I offered to cover her while she finds work) so I told her to treat her office like she was David Attenborough narrating a documentary. "And here we find the Donna in its natural habitat, scientists where surprised to discover the Donna can eat its own weight in fried chicken every week" tha…

Consider helping accelerate your partner’s job search. No one deserves a toxic job.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#63

Post by was_boring »

watwut wrote: post #26
geocar wrote: post #24

I've been consulting for over twenty years at this point, and I've had my share of toxic clients (including one who actually sued me and was surprised when the judge wasn't amused by his suggestion I work for free either). You didn't say where you're from, where they're from (besides America), or what vertical you're working in, or what do you mean by "the end-justifies-the-means tactics" so I can only give the most…

> However if that abuse is coming from your stakeholder, you need to realise it's because they are receiving pressure Some abusive people just believe that this is what makes them tough and effective. Has nothing to do with someone else pressuring them. I used to give benefit of the doubt in these situations and think it is external, until I seen with such managers up close and it turned out it was them and only them…

I'm going to second this. I've seen on more then one occasion that some people believe it's their job to do this on order to be most effective. I literally had PM tell me (as head of engineering) that they thought it was there job to set unrealistic expectations and adversarial environment in the hopes that it created an environment where the engineers worked longer.

I'm reality it creates a hostile work environment where burnout is high, morale is low, and projects take even longer to finish. It sacrifices all long term gains for short term results.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#64

Post by duxup »

I fear they may know it and because you are tied so tightly to them they know they can behave that way and potentially use their leverage for other things.

I've known companies who explicitly look for situations where they are the biggest customer in order to operate how they wish and extract concessions. I'd be concerned about more than just behavior.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#66

Post by andrei_says_ »

Shorn wrote: post #61
lwansbrough wrote: post #14

This probably isn't the immediate answer you're looking for, but I've found a lot of value in a book called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss (no affiliation, just loved the book.) It provides practical guidance on the subject of negotiation. However, in reading it you'll find that a lot of these rules of negotiation apply to broader aspects of life. The author, Voss, was a former negotiator for the FBI and wa…

I'm suffering serious Frequency illusion with Chris Voss - I feel like his stuff is popping up everywhere around me (ended up watching two videos yesterday). I find myself actively fighting the impulse to read the book. I can't decide if I'm a savvy, advertising-aware consumer; or maybe I'm just another sucker.

Research shows that advertising works even better on “smart and advertising savvy” consumers. So, probably both, just like me :)

Can’t source the research but I did skim an article at some point.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#67

Post by andrei_says_ »

sverige wrote: post #38

I had a horrible experience with the site director for a Fortune 50 company that lasted almost two years. I tried most of the techniques mentioned by others here to protect my team. In the end, the only way we were able to deal with the situation was to play some extreme politics with the asshole's organization to get them to move him to a different org within their company. The company itself (rightly) has a reputat…

Could you share a few specifics on what actions made your experience with this client terrible? “Terrible” and “asshole” are very subjective terms and mean different things to different people.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#68

Post by andrei_says_ »

davidg109 wrote: post #49

I’m surprised by some of the responses on here. You don’t have to take this shit. Your client is a bully. Log everything, inform your management you will not be bullied, and in a professional tone, parrot each assholish thing your client says. If they remain unmoved, tell them upfront this is abusive behavior and it ends now. This will either stop them in their tracks or you will eventually be fired. That’s when you…

Thank you this is very useful. Paper trails work.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#69

Post by aitchnyu »

jmalicki wrote: post #11

There's literally a whole book by a Stanford biz school professor about this exact subject. One of my pet favorite tips: pretend you're a research psychologist observing a patient with a rare mental disorder (doesn't solve all of the problems, but at least helps to cope). https://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Survival-Guide-People-Treat/d...

Philosphers from Socrates to the Stoics have a variant of "forgive them Father, for they don't know what they are they are doing". A person who values wrong things is bound to act bad. And its a handicap worse than blindness or lameness and therefore deserve compassion.

Re: Ask HN: Coping when your client is an asshole?

#70

Post by sverige »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #67
sverige wrote: post #38

I had a horrible experience with the site director for a Fortune 50 company that lasted almost two years. I tried most of the techniques mentioned by others here to protect my team. In the end, the only way we were able to deal with the situation was to play some extreme politics with the asshole's organization to get them to move him to a different org within their company. The company itself (rightly) has a reputat…

Could you share a few specifics on what actions made your experience with this client terrible? “Terrible” and “asshole” are very subjective terms and mean different things to different people.

Late reply, but here are the bullet points:

* Offered expensive incentives to my employees during one particular crunch time -- incentives that were to come out of our pocket, not his -- then lied about it

* Used insulting, demeaning language when addressing me, my direct reports, and some of the first-level employees

* Made racist comments within earshot of the targets

* Shifted goal posts constantly so that last week's goal suddenly became only halfway there

* Tried to get competitive information during contract negotiation time by buying my directs drinks at "social hours" and/or offering seeming insider information to get them to reveal the reasoning behind our negotiating positions

I could go on, but that gives the flavor. My boss got him out by pushing very hard with her superiors and his superiors on a (partially trumped up) sexual harassment charge. Normally that would really upset me, but in this particular case it seemed like old-fashioned rough justice.

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