Tell your teacher if he teaches Python, students will remember him, whereas a VB.net teacher is forgettable.
Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
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Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#62Show him the google trends for "vb.net".
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#63I don't think Python is a good idea for a high-school class (where a big bunch of the people don't really care about programming anyways). Hell anyone that already knows a bit of programming will be completely thrown off his chair by the whitespace constraints, while new ones will probably have an awful time trying to debug anything. Python is a great language and it certainly is 'easy' in contrast to a bunch of othe…
I'd argue that Ruby is a bit harder to learn, specially for someone with no background in programming. While Python tends towards clarity and predictability, Ruby tends more toward conciseness and power. That means some things are not as straightforward to figure out.
Ruby's syntax is also far more opaque at first glance than Python's is. Ruby in my experience isn't any more concise than Python, and often falls into the same trap as Perl of having "more than one way to do it"
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#64One thing that you guys are forgetting is that Python is completely portable while VB.net requires Mono at the least on non-Windows systems. In a learning environment I think this is more than trivial.
It depends if the learning environment is already all Windows or not. I don't hold much hope for a high school being anything but. The other thing people are forgetting is that starting with VB.Net gives a nice predictable IDE which any student can replicate at home with a simple installer. Anything like python comes with so many options and opinions that it can actually be a distraction from learning to program.
Ah, but there's no guarantee that the students have Windows machines at home. I agree that replicating a development environment in one's own system is important -- which is why it's important to take into account households (like mine) where all the computers run OS X.
Windows is not as dominant as it once was.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#65Why? 1) Your teacher cannot learn a new language well enough to teach a bunch of high school students in time. Have some consideration for him. 2) Your goal when starting to learn programming is not to learn the syntax of any one language, it's to learn to solve problems using programming. - Learn about P-code ( or psuedo code ) - Learn about Simple Data Structures. - Learn about conditional( if-then-else ) construct…
I completely agree on all counts.
On top of that, VB.NET makes it almost trivial to transition to C#, which is a hugely important language right now.
VB.NET can also give you a hint of mix-ins (through interfaces and extension methods) and functional programming. Not saying you'll get there in the class, but it's out there. The .NET platform gives you a taste of almost every programming paradigm out there. It's very versatile.
If you want to go through LPTHW, nothing is stopping you. In fact, you don't even have to wait for the class to begin. Just start.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#66It's school. Use what they tell you to use. When you get into the real world at a company, you will get told to do tons of stupid crap you wont want to do. And you can learn to do it, or find a different job. If you want to be able to do whatever you want, become good enough at something to be your own boss (or be good enough to have a great job at a great company). And for you to do that, learning how to program from your teacher is not going to help. Learn python on your own and learn VB.net from your teacher. If you don't have the motivation to do that, you'll be stuck in bad jobs doing shit you don't want to do anyway, and clearly school has yet to teach you that vital lesson.
Oh to be a teenager again.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd say there's likely more VB jobs around. Secondly, learning a crap language first is often a really good idea. It shows you what not to do. It's like having a failed startup and then having a success - you learn from that failure. And thirdly, it just doesn't matter that much. You should be learning programming. Not programming.
And thirdly, it just doesn't matter that much. You should be learning programming. Not programming. That is precisely why it matters so much. There's a general misconception that somehow, programming languages are fundamentally equal; that there's nothing specific a programming language brings to the table. I think that's false. VB.NET is a relatively shitty language, and will make many essential programming concepts…
Programming concepts matter, but languages don't.
You can do closures in any language under the sun. They might not be called closures, and you might have to type more characters in some languages than others, but they're still closures.
My personal stance is that all languages are pretty much equal. The only real difference that matters is syntax and that's largely a matter of taste. Don't get me wrong, some languages are sane, some are insane, some are ugly, some are beautiful, but they all do the same thing - function as an intermediary language between us and a CPU.
There's so much snobbery around language choice, and so much fashion following which I think is a shame. Also identifying oneself as a " programmer", rather than "a programmer" is sad.
Practically though, you get down to libraries, probability of creating bugs/typos, speed of runtime, 'community' etc if you care about those.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mean this as flamebait at all.. Really. I very much respect the .NET platform... but honestly, something really bothers me about the idea of teaching a proprietary language & platform in public schools when there are sooo many amazing open source options available..
Fair comment and I kind of agree in spirit. Java hasn't really been living the dream lately though. At my high school we were taught to use Word and Excel because those were considered essential skills. We could have learnt Open Office or something else but really, how often are we going to encounter that in the real world? In terms of practical use, .Net is not a bad choice. Personally I would like to see Python for…
We could have learnt Open Office or something else but really, how often are we going to encounter that in the real world? In terms of practical use, .Net is not a bad choice
I'd say let's take practical-business-relevance out of it (even though I'd argue the relevance of Java, Python, and Ruby to be plenty comparable to .NET).
We're talking about high school students, not trade-school students. I think the curriculum ought to be about opening their eyes to this really incredible world of solving problems with computers and logic. I also think a bit part of the key to that is to make sure we don't saddle them with skills that can't afford to develop. You know how bummed I was after taking AutoCad or using Photoshop in high school only to find out that I'd have to mow lawns until I was thirty to afford to use them at home? That's just stupid, and spirit-breaking for interested kids that don't have 800$ (or whatever) for Visual-Studio-Enterprise-Resume-Edition.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#69VB (5.5, not .NET) was my first language. I took it in high school as well, when I was 16 (4 years ago) Contrary to Dijkstra's claims, it won't kill your brain or make it impossible to learn any other language.
And honestly? VB is great for beginners. Button.OnClick? That's dead simple to use. Even non-programmers will pick it up. It let's your teacher focus on the fundamentals; "what is an if statement?" or on a simpler level, what is a variable and how do you use them?" and so on.
Keep in mind: this is a high school class. You and your friends may care about it, but the other 20 people in the class probably don't. And you can't realistically expect your teacher to change the syllabus mid-year for you.
Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
How accessible is VB.NET for all those kids who own a Mac?
I hear Mac's run Windows pretty well.
And how much does the non-upgrade copy of Windows cost? I suppose kids could download an unregistered copy and use that for 90 days or whatever the period is, but that may not be enough to last the school year. No doubt schools won't encourage kids to use unlicensed software that they "borrowed" from somewhere.