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Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

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Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#61

We're a small company in a small town. When we go to hire, we can't afford software developers, period. We can't pay relocation even if they were willing to move here. There's a local university, but we have yet to see a graduate of the C.S. program who was competent, willing to stay in town, and not already hired by one of the area's larger employers. We've made a couple of good hires, none of whom had significant p…

What town, out of curiosity?

I'd prefer to remain pseudonymous, more or less, so I'll just say that we're in the same town as a big public university with a substantial ag program. I've lived in other towns like this, and I suspect my comment applies to any of them.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#62
post #2

Why waste time, buy a service like codility and only interview the best couple ones. I don't work for any of those online code tests btw, but they're pretty good for sorting applicants and cheaper than your own time. Junior developers need to have high IQ and ability to code, everything else you will need to teach them anyway. Keep in mind that if you don't have time to teach them they will not be cheaper than senior…

"High IQ"

Thanks for the laugh.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#64
Most comments already get to the point. You can not hire a junior with senior or intermediate level skills.

It seems like you are in the same shoes as me at the moment. What I suggest you to do is to prepare a small test tasks they can do at home. This saves up time for you going through unnecessary extra interview processes and also shows some of their dedication and skills. I am not saying you should not have interviews, but it is hard to filter candidates just by resumes (and you can not have 400+ interviews).

Answering your question, I usually look out for the following:

1. After I sent the candidates the test task, but before they finish it (NOTE: I don't know they progress on it):

- Do they let me know when they have time to do the task (in case they are not able to it immediately) or do they just let time pass by.

- Do they come back with questions if they hit a wall somewhere.

- Do they let me know if they are not able to do the task (for whatever reason). At this point they are obviously out of the process, but they might re-apply at a later time.

- Communication is key at this level of the application process.

2. After I received the results of the test task

- Obviously did they finish the task in a reasonable quality. There are most likely mistakes in it, but this is irrelevant in case the general quality of the result is ok and the solution works as expected.

- The quality also reflects on how much time they spent testing their own solution.

- Did they finish all the sub-tasks (usually I also ask for documentation and tests) or did they just skip those.

- Did they try to find quick and dirty solutions or did they try to implement things properly (and most likely spent more time on it).

The best developer you can hire is somebody who does communicate pro-actively, is dedicated and develops maintainable solutions over "easy" ones. How much time they spent on the task and how proficient they were with the tools at hand (programming languages/frameworks) is not relevant in my opinion. If they were unfamiliar with the programming language for example and they spent the time during that task to learn part of it and delivered a proper solution with it, they got all my respect and I would be very likely to hire them.

You will also have to spent time reviewing the test task results, but I think this is less time-consuming than interviews. More than half of the candidates will probably jump off before you even see the results. For the other half you will learn how to distinguish a good from a bad solution quickly.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#65

I've been in this exact situation and had some real success (and failure)... I think hiring a junior developer who will be great and good for your organization comes down to one thing: how much passion do they have for programming? If they don't do it on their own, and don't seem interested in programming for their own benefit outside of the job, then don't hire them. People who are new but enthusiastic and spend a l…

>> If they don't do it on their own, and don't seem interested in programming for their own benefit outside of the job, then don't hire them. I strongly disagree with this. We as an industry desperately need to stop propagating these myths about what makes a good developer. You're enthusiasm for programming outside of work has jack all to do with your ability to perform the job functions expected of a SWE. Is it a si…

I strongly disagree with you and I'm guessing you don't have much experience hiring.

You reference lawyers and doctors but they have already spent years in dedication of knowledge and experience. That's simply a bad comparison.

This is about a junior developer not mid-level or senior. At some point as another comment says you have enough experience to not focus on it outside of work. In the beginning if you don't have passion and a desire to learn which your time at work won't be sufficient for, it's probably a good indicator you won't be a good engineer.

Further your eight hours a day 260 days a year number is hogwash in the real world. No one gets eight hours of coding a day done unless they're prototyping in a cave isolated from the world. Communicating through pull requests, ticket systems, emails, slack, etc drive real productivity to somewhere between 3-6 hours a day depending on the company. So what it really means is you're talking 1.5x-2.25x the amount of time. That's assuming all learning is equal and the you're given tasks which linearly increase your knowledge (which is just nonsense). I for one would not want to hire someone who needs three or four years of work experience to overcome their "junior" title.

I'm also in no way advocating they work more than 40 hour weeks or donate their time to the company. They need to be passionate enough to push their knowledge over a series of plateaus.

A lot of people go to "code schools" now but lack passion. They want the pay thinking it'll be easy because of shitty and evil marketing campaigns that make false promises. That passion will prevent them from excelling at the work.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#66

I'm a little worried you're never going to find a junior developer that's satisfactory enough to qualify for what you want, explicitly because you're looking for a senior developer at junior developer pay. Junior developers need to be given time to make mistakes and learn. I know a senior developer might seem too expensive for your budget, but hiring a junior developer might ultimately cost more for your project over…

Learn and communicate, I don't think anyone would argue with that, but how do you judge that from talking to someone, reading their resume, or viewing their portfolio? That's the question. For a junior developer these are some things I look for:

I want to see evidence they are familiar with the tools; since I hire for enterprise Java that is: eclipse (or other ide), maven, and git. I don't expect them to know much, just evidence they've used them and are familiar with some the concepts they mask (i.e. the class path) or why they're important (ie version control).

I ask them to tell me about a project they've done and the data structures they used, then drill down just enough to see if they understand why they used them, and how they're implemented.

Depending on the work, I'll drill down into data structures a bit more, but otherwise, I don't focus on anything but familiarity with the basics.

If they're straight out of school I ask them what they're favorite CS class was.

One of my favorites is to ask about a tricky bug they've solved recently. This one either gets people talking, or they don't have anything. If they don't have anything, I'll probe, but if a candidate can't talk about this it's a strong signal to not hire (imo).

As an exampe, I interviewed a self taught guy one time, very green. He had written a few simple android apps, but had used notepad and the command line, so didn't know anything about Eclipse. I asked him about any datastructures he'd used in his apps and why. He was at a loss, and had only used arrays apparently. The guy had some positives; he had shipped two apps, which is something, working with primitive tools. But he also hadn't taught himself the "standard" tools, which we all do to a point.

When it comes to someone that green, I just don't have the time to train them. I once worked with an architect who was really good at training green developers, and his management gave him a funnel. They developed a really great (and cheap) team. Most of their devs stayed long term, but some got training and left after 1-2 years.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If they don't do it on their own, and don't seem interested in programming for their own benefit outside of the job, then don't hire them. I strongly disagree with this. We as an industry desperately need to stop propagating these myths about what makes a good developer. You're enthusiasm for programming outside of work has jack all to do with your ability to perform the job functions expected of a SWE. Is it a si…

Let me qualify the parent comment with my own feelings, as i knew the moment i read their comment what your reply would say. Of the 30 or so engineers i have worked closely with over the last 6 years, nothing correlates better to the programmers ability than what i describe as "passion". I do not share the stance that this requires someone to spend time outside of work on personal projects or burning the midnight oil…

I agree with the grandparent that relying on passion is toxic to our profession, almost exploitive. But as you say, it's a reliable indicator. Passionate juniors can be their own problem though, like monstrous object hierarchies for simple problems. But that's a separate issue.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#68

I've hired quite a lot of programmers over the years, but I'm Danish, and around 95% of our junior applicants and 100% of the people we interview come with a relevant degree (2.5-5 years) because of our free education system. So it may be a tad different in the US where a lot of people are autodidact. Basically I look for the following things. * Do I think the candidate has the capacity to learn. Every hire we've tak…

> Often we end up with a few who are strong technically and a few who are strong in personality and willingness. We always go with the latter.

Ever a candidate who's both? Great response, thanks!

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#69
Another approach is to hire freelancers and convert them into juniors if you like them enough. Juniors are an investment. Freelancers may secretly be seniors at junior salary.

Also when hiring programmers, you should be doing so from programmer communities (GitHub, SO) rather than job sites. Even FB groups will give you better odds. 400+ applicants sounds like you're hiring from the wrong places.

Re: Ask HN: What qualities do you look for in a junior developer?

#70
post #68

I've hired quite a lot of programmers over the years, but I'm Danish, and around 95% of our junior applicants and 100% of the people we interview come with a relevant degree (2.5-5 years) because of our free education system. So it may be a tad different in the US where a lot of people are autodidact. Basically I look for the following things. * Do I think the candidate has the capacity to learn. Every hire we've tak…

> Often we end up with a few who are strong technically and a few who are strong in personality and willingness. We always go with the latter. Ever a candidate who's both? Great response, thanks!

Rarely. I'm from the public sector (a municipality) and the brutal truth is that we typically don't attract the best of the best. We don't pay enough and our reputation isn't great so we typically only attract the best of the best if they are having children (benefits) or come with some sort of ideology for wanting public service.
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