I can imagine it now. An alternate reality where all programmers are "certified software engineers" except for a handful of hobbyists. I log onto hacker news, click on the top article, and read about how "certified" programmers cannot fizz buzz.
Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
61–70 of 79 posts
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#62Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…
That's an excellent way for software to be 100x more expensive and controlled by a cartel of incumbents. We could also send to jail those users who don't RTFM.
If your software could potentially kill people, it should absolutely cost significantly more, and require criminal liability risk for the maker. If your software couldn't ever kill people, you have no liability.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#63Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…
Criminally liable? There do not exist schedules or tools or processes that would allow me to put my freedom on the line for my work. I'm a solid developer, too, but I am pretty open-eyed at the challenge of zero-defects. I think the premise, "engineers need to risk going to prison." is facially ridiculous. I'm down with prosecuting actual fraud but you can't legislate quality. You can only protect diligence.
This is one of the reasons why a lot of electrical/mechanical/civil engineers don't get their certification. Same reason. No amount of money would make them take that risk.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#64I can imagine it now. An alternate reality where all programmers are "certified software engineers" except for a handful of hobbyists. I log onto hacker news, click on the top article, and read about how "certified" programmers cannot fizz buzz.
It can go the other way too. Here in Uruguay the local ("free") state university was for a long time the only place to get an engineering degree.
They somehow decided that they needed to set insanely hard exams, so that 97% of the students fail (not an exaggeration). So they had a nice monopoly and could command huge salaries.
Most of those students that fail now transfer to private universities and end up being perfectly acceptable engineers, programmers, etc.
But the very few that end up graduating (about 1 in a 1000) are really very good at problem solving and I doubt that any one of them that chooses CS would fail fizz buzz. They're required to write their own compilers, write a hardware driver, and other stuff, up to what would be postgraduate level in the U.S.
The market doesn't really recognize the insane stuff they had to go through and often pays them the same as a graduate from a private university (which is "easier" by virtue of being sane, I'd say most are perfectly acceptable in the exigence level)
http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/ingenieria-solo-3-6-de-...
http://noticias.universia.edu.uy/en-portada/noticia/2013/05/...
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#65As a Software Engineering student, I can't decipher whether the comments here are sarcastic or honest.
" It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! " --Upton Sinclair A lot of people currently in the industry wouldn't qualify if Professional Engineer-style certification were instituted and even those that do would be held to a lot higher standard than they are now.
Interestingly, I'm transferring into the Software Engineering BS and opted not to transfer into the Computer Science BS because on top of a year of calculus, Computer Science BS requires a year of Chemistry, Biology and Physics. So...the Software Engineering degree is just calculus and programming.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#66I would prefer an apprenticeship system. Possibly have several levels. To get to the next level you would have to create an independent project that you submit to the committee. The committee would review it and then interview you. This would culminate in a master-level project at which point you would be allowed to refer to yourself as a "master programmer". As others have said, there are already engineering societi…
Engineering certification managed by the NCEES (the Professional Engineer certification), used by most other engineering disciplines outside of software, has an apprenticeship of sorts in that one much work for several years as an Engineer-in-Training before being able to get your PE credentials. They do offer Software PEs as of recent.
Yes, the real question is more one of bootstrapping demand than finding associations to provide credentials. I considered trying for a Software PE because my current job (which is an environmental engineering firm where PEs in civil/environmental/electrical/et al are required/needed/present) would give me a small salary bonus for a PE title (and job title distinction that matters to my ego), but the effort involved doesn't seem worth it if the distinction is largely ignored by the software industry itself.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. Right, but that's not what OP asked. OP is already assuming that we're in a situation where we recognize the need for certification for software engineers. Let's say, for e…
I don't see any other way than to grandfather in all or most current practitioners. Take, say, everyone with five years of documented experience and a relevant degree. Congratulations, they are now certified engineers. Provide ways for workers who don't quite meet those standards to get themselves in compliance. But enforce requirements for all incoming graduates from then on. And there might be requirements for ongo…
The NCEES which maintains Professional Engineering certification in the US does support Software PEs already.
The question would indeed be one of bootstrapping: processes to convert on the job experience into more certifications and conversely to add appreciable demand for the certifications into the job market.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#68Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…
> Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on.
Dunno about the USA but the aerospace companies I've worked for in Europe already require multiple sign-off from engineers.
"Engineers" meaning people who got an engineering degree (typically 5-6 years for a master) from an accredited university.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#69Ugh. If you really want to do this, try a whole bunch of nasty heuristics on github profiles - analyze how "carefully" they code (kind of apis they use, coding style, defensive programming, etc.); how much care they take polishing their projects (frequency and type of commits, comment sentiment, refactoring, etc.); how well they write documentation and unit tests, and such. It would be an interesting academic project, but I doubt you can really create an acceptable scoring model out of it.
In many ways the "certification" for software engineers is a misnomer. For me, github is a certification of sorts - a (biased) view: good engineers code for passion not money. I'm sure there's lots of good engineers that don't have a github, but I prefer those that do.
Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Is it? At one time, physicians, too, were not all that keen on the idea of licensing. " David A. Johnson and Humayun J. Chaudhry's surprisingly engaging Medical Licensing and Discipline in America: A History of the Federation of State Medical Boards was published to commemorate the centennial celebration of the Federation of State M…
I think licenses makes sense for doctors because they are working on people, their solution is generally specific to one person, and a mistake that they make can have dire consequences. Software engineering can also have large consequences but in those cases it's probably significantly more effective to test the actual product than test the engineers.
Thanks, I think this is the most clear cut analysis of values at play.