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Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

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Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#61

Post by marcus_holmes »

chroma wrote: post #57
marcus_holmes wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe the OP is asking "for a friend". Either way, it's a good subject for a real conversation. I had to stop drinking recently, probably for good. A friend pointed out my behaviour when drunk and suggested that alcohol was not doing me any good. I've found new clarity and sense of purpose since I quit. It may not be the solution for everyone, but it's worked for me. I'm also in counselling to try and solve some of t…

> maybe the OP is asking "for a friend" That's what I initially thought, but it's a throwaway account. There's no risk that the post will be traced back to a real-world person. And a first-person accounting would invite commenters to help directly. I've seen Ask HN threads where the poster had a substance abuse problem. The community is very accepting when it comes to these things.

yeah it is. I'm always surprised by that for some reason

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#62

Post by numbsafari »

thebigshane wrote: post #44
bfung wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^^ This is what managers and HR is for. If you're uncomfortable bringing up the issue, explain to HR and have them present it as "we want to help you" and not that "you're in trouble". Depends how good your managers and HR are. It's probably best for everyone that he can move forward with his alcoholism, even for himself.

While this is probably the "right course of action" (whatever that means), I'd imagine this will surely, eventually lead to him leaving the company one way or another and you can say goodbye to the miraculous hash table implementations. I'm not throwing my hat on either option, but I am highlighting that this option has consequences you need to be prepared for. (Ok, they both have consequences)

I've never met a programmer that isn't replaceable.

What I have found, are lots of organizations that suffer because they allow a tyrant to exploit the imposter syndrome of those around them.

What you have here is a shitty manager who is holding his company back and putting it at serious risk by not remedying a serious problem. It's exploitative, demoralizing, and entirely unnecessary.

Get this guy some help before he dies. And fire your miscreant of a manager.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#63

Post by cmdrfred »

Nihilartikel wrote: post #38
cmdrfred wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have observed no higher power than man. Where does that leave me?

Perhaps the inverse of acknowledging that, ultimately, man is entirely powerless would work just as well.

I look at the large hadron collider, the apollo program, the curiosity rover, the pyramids of giza, the hoover dam, and the international space station and scoff at the idea that we are powerless. Yes there are problems that we can't solve currently, but humanity is a young race. We'll get there.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#64

Post by another_anon_34 »

Animats wrote: post #27

If your company has a comprehensive medical plan, such as Kaiser, you can get help from them. If you have a real HR department, they can handle it. Pros are required. Dealing with alcoholism is very tough, and it get worse with time. Consider putting him on unpaid leave and sending him to some rehab center.

> Consider putting him on unpaid leave and sending him to some rehab center.

This is the most reasonable response I've seen so far.

And if the person in question happens to read this, or someone is in a similar situation regarding drinking, please know that there are other ways to quit other than AA. AA seems to work great for some people, but not for others, no matter how hard they try. By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, know that there are alternatives.

By way of alternatives, there is Rational Recovery, SMART Recovery, the former of which I've had success with. For spiritual/religious people, there is church. I even know a former extremely hardcore alcoholic (used to drink with her) with a secondary opiate addiction who enrolled in a methadone maintenance program and hasn't had a drink since she started the program some 10 years ago.

(I would advise anyone who has decided they have a drinking problem to avoid any type of "moderation management" program. Just my personal opinion, but the only way I've seen people I would consider to be actual alcoholics succeed is through complete abstinence.)

It's hard, but it can be done. Just keep trying different options.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#65

Post by AnimalMuppet »

> He started drinking a lot when some of his family members died unexpectedly in an accident.

I worked with a dev like this. (It was his parents who died.) But he didn't make it to his mid 50s. He was out drinking, and someone else drove home - someone more sober than my co-worker, but not actually sober. There was a car wreck, and my co-worker died from complications from the injuries.

I get that there's an immense amount of pain. But sedating the pain with alcohol isn't the answer. You need to find a way to deal with it, just avoid it.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#66

Post by kdamken »

How do you help him? You either stage an intervention, or do nothing. In reality, the decision to quit is really something people need to come to on their own, usually after hitting whatever their own form of "bottom" is.

Some people get there and begin recovery, some don't. You can't force someone to do it.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#67

Post by RoyTyrell »

Personally, I'd say he's a huge liability waiting to happen. What if he gets drunk at work, leaves, and hops in a car and ends up killing someone? What if he accidently mucks something up (deleting code, pushing something into prod that shouldn't, etc).

Perhaps his manager needs to sit him down and say that while they appreciate that he could be more productive while drunk, they can't have him drinking at work nor working while drunk, and the company is fully in support of him seeking treatment and therapy to help him.

Your company is enabling him and indirectly taking advantage of his problem because it's temporarily increasing productivity. In all likelihood he will get fired over this. If he has a sympathetic manager and team that can intervene and he's willing to get help, it could eventually work out.

That's my $0.02.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#68

Post by LouisSayers »

saganus wrote: post #30
LouisSayers wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he has a family, then they'd know. He has to want to get help - this is the hard bit. I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern... If I were a manager id have a chat with him

>I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern As opposed to what? letting him endanger his life and potentially those of others? I don't think that at this point that's facilitating his drinking. The guy will clearly keep drinking regardless of his coworkers. Facilitating him would be letting him get drunk just so he can code faster and meet the deadline…

I'm not saying you should let him drive home drunk. I'm saying that he shouldn't be allowed to come to work drunk!

By having an intern help him around, by driving him home, then you are facilitating his drinking. You're basically saying "It's ok to come to work drunk, we'll support you if you do".

What I'm saying is that if this is a regular occurrence, you should put your foot down and say "No, don't come to work drunk, it's not OK". If he ends up in the curb because he favours his drinking over his work / life then that's his choice.

I'm not saying fire his ass, I'm saying have a chat to him. A good manager will know how to do this. It's not a "You need help" talk, but it's a "We've noticed this behaviour, what's going on?" talk.

If you don't have this talk, and continue to drive him home then you are facilitating his drinking, you're basically saying it's OK.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#69

Post by helen842000 »

Has anyone sat down with him and discussed his issues with him and what professional help he needs?

Has anyone even mentioned to him that it's not ok to come to work like that. You are right that he shouldn't be coding in that state but you are letting him come in, sit at his desk and carry on.

Have those conversations before he hurts himself, those around him and the business.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#70

Post by saganus »

LouisSayers wrote: post #68
saganus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern As opposed to what? letting him endanger his life and potentially those of others? I don't think that at this point that's facilitating his drinking. The guy will clearly keep drinking regardless of his coworkers. Facilitating him would be letting him get drunk just so he can code faster and meet the deadline…

I'm not saying you should let him drive home drunk. I'm saying that he shouldn't be allowed to come to work drunk! By having an intern help him around, by driving him home, then you are facilitating his drinking. You're basically saying "It's ok to come to work drunk, we'll support you if you do". What I'm saying is that if this is a regular occurrence, you should put your foot down and say "No, don't come to work dr…

I guess you are right.

That's part of the reason this is such a tricky issue I think. But phrased like that, I do agree with you that there should be a limit at some point.

However being the one to enforce that... well, that just sucks.

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