Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#591

Post by PainfullyNormal » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:13 AM UTC

lbrito wrote: post #192

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

>have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. Wow. I have 10 years of work experience, the last few being "senior". I have a few friends and many recruiters I could reach out to, but absolutely expecting a full fledged 30-round interview like anyone else. I envy you!

Same here at 20 years. It definitely seems to be one of those things that's not universal to all Senior devs.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#592

Post by syngrog66 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:16 AM UTC

> - Resume screened by in-house recruiter

1st mistake

> - 30m call with them

2nd mistake

stopped reading after that. :-)

and I dont mean to sound harsh. but in a market where experienced talent is in high demand, we get TONS of inbound leads, in parallel, and thus look for ultra easy ways to filter them down. you immediately gave me a way to do it

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing

DOH. if I hadn't bailed by now, heres where I would pass on you fast. you're welcome to look at my resume/CV and respect my word, welcome to look at my GitHub, and welcome to offer me a paying project, but if you think I'll give you 4+ unpaid hours of my professional time, to every rando who pings me, just to prove, "Yes, I'm A Programmer Like I Already Told/Showed You" then be prepared to miss out on all the people with BATNA's and self-respect.

The attitude of entitlement by some companies in 2022 has gotten out of hand. Overdue for corrective turn.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#593

Post by srvmshr » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:18 AM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #244

I am going to add one thing that I haven't heard here. You probably need to raise the cash in your offer by a lot. Most mid-size companies think that they can get away with offering equity at a ridiculous valuation and attract people who aren't true believers. Most people aren't true believers in miscellaneous DevOps that doesn't involve a lot of code. I have spoken to a few series-C and D companies that wanted to gi…

This.

The social media analytics company I left last year offered me 7 stock units (in RSU) for $20,000 as bonus. I declined. They are not in IPO yet. The confidence of the CFO saying, "[...] of course they will appreciate even higher" is laughable.

Giving an overblown estimate as bonus is doing disservice. The hard work is real, the valuation is not.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#594

Post by nprateem » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:18 AM UTC

I have those skills. I joined LinkedIn 2 weeks ago and in that time have been bombarded by recruiters. I've had maybe 30-40 message me directly. I was looking but now I'm sitting tight in my current job. I'd consider moving for unlimited time off, full remote and twice the salary most offer (starting around £250k basic) because I know my current job and it's cushy.

And yeah, I'd direct you to my GH instead of doing tests, but would obviously be ok to interview.

Like others have said, without knowing your salary I wouldn't even reply, and you'd need to contact me initially anyway.

In this market you may need to approach hiring not as fishing for bites, but more like headhunting for execs, since that's what your competitors are doing.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#595

Post by lordnacho » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

aledalgrande wrote: post #523

mr_gibbins wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. People with 10+ years, a good network and decent resume pop their head up above the parapet and get instantly mobbed with offers. They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. No-one good is going to do a takehome just so the hiring team can rub their beards and feel superior while they pick over the code. That approach worked a few years ago, in today's recruitment bear market you don't pick the candidates,…

> One chap joined (for a few days) and left because he had started somewhere else at the same time - they won out. Wait what???

I think this will get more common with remote working. Start a new role, then dump it if one of the other searches turns up a better one.

I think FAANG has something to do with this too. They're often known to be slow in coming up with the offer, often seeming like they're not going to proceed. A friend started working at a startup, then got a top Google offer, dumped the startup for the better job that came in later.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#596

Post by nnurmanov » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:21 AM UTC

Personally, I usually fail tests. I don't have good memory to memorize all the algos, keywords, I am a StackOverflow driven developer:), but the last interview went really good, I could say I liked it and I even received an offer letter.

Let me briefly describe the setup. The job is with a well-known software outsourcer, the position is Middle Java Engineer. 1. Quick interview with the recruiter; 2. A hour long interview with senior engineer, where I told him about the projects I have completed, he asked some questions, at the end he gave me a relatively simple java task; 3. An interview with the engineering manager, who wanted to know how would I approach some problems, e.g. concurrency, security related.

The interview process did not require me to spend weeks to prepare, no 2-3-4 hours commitment and no questions outside of context. IMO, when you do hundreds of interviews you realize that passing tests successfully does not mean you will be successful at workplace.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#597

Post by cwilkes » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:26 AM UTC

bigiain wrote: post #489

anon291 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> Alternatively, perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. That doesn't solve the majority of the "senior position" problem. Like you point out, your schedule does not have a "spare" 4 hour block in it, and paying you $1000 to find one is not going to make you jump at the opportunity if the alternative is a different role that is not asking for a 4 hour block of your family time. Anybody recruiting for "senior…

But going onsite or remote interviewing for 4 hours is more reasonable?

Looking at the original post they have a 4 hour at home coding assignment that’s followed up by a group presentation. I’m guessing that one is an hour or so. Figure another hour or two to prepare for that.

It doesn’t seem like it is much off from a typical 5-6 hour on site interview. Plus I think you can get more of a signal about how they can explain a problem that they spent some time thinking about vs trying them trying to get excited about a leet code problem.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#598

Post by higeorge13 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:27 AM UTC

geekbird wrote: post #262

conradfr wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience a (not timeboxed) 4 hours coding assignment will actually take at least a day. Is not necessary malicious from those companies, they just underestimate the time their test take.

IMO, most engineers massively under-estimate the time it takes to do "simple" tasks if you don't already have the infrastructure/environment set up for it.

And some times they assume specific or latest versions of some platform because they are currently working on it. I remember some flink take home required some latest api, while i have worked with flink in earlier versions. It took me 4h just to go through the updated documentation, while it was supposed to be an 1h one.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#599

Post by nscalf » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:28 AM UTC

4 hour take home tests are an immediate no from me. It’s cheaper for you, but you’re essentially asking to do my job unpaid. If it’s an hour long interview, you’re bought in and we’re both there. A take home test does not tell me in any way that you’re serious with me for this role, and I haven’t decided your company is worth my time yet.

Typical engineering interviews are 30 minute intro to the company, hour long technical, then full on site. I put in 1.5 hours total before I know if you’re serious. I’m not putting in 4.5 hours before an on site.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#600

Post by grepfru_it » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 5:40 AM UTC

joshmanders wrote: post #442

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. What do you do for normal on-site interviews or phone interviews that have similar time demands? I’m also a parent of small children with a packed schedule, but I’d much rather take a 4-hour take home and handle it on the weekend or when I’m flexible. Giv…

It’s easy really. Walk. As a senior it’s insulting to expect to do a four hour take home test. When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? It’s absolutely asinine that we accept this behavior in our industry. You’d be laughed at by every possible candidate in other industries.

Actors must audition before they are chosen for a role. Sometimes several times..