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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#581

Post by layer8 »

Zvez wrote: post #566

I'm shocked how many support or at least 'it is ok' comments here, so I won't go to tell my opinion about OP or if this is acceptable in general. Instead just my personal answer. Yeah, I lie about how much time I put to work, when I for some reason decided to put some of my personal time to solve some problem, or improve something, or simply experimenting. I'm not proud of it, but it happens. Anyway, I never was in a…

Totally agree. I'm already astonished about the general frequency of comments on HN that as a developer one can't get more than ~4 hours of serious work done per day due to mental exhaustion. That's really not a lot. Doing only 5-10 hours/week, however, is outright ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#582

Post by neuronic »

cogman10 wrote: post #184
cj wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Perhaps at large companies? I would hope people applying to jobs at small 5-20 person startups aren't bullshitting and lying about the work they do. Or to reword the same sentiment, I hope people looking for the easiest possible path target their job search at companies with lots of bureaucracy where people not doing your job is more easily tole…

The 5->10 hours a week is definitely on the extreme end of laziness. However, I do think if you are doing the full 40+ hours only working you are likely heading towards burnout. IMO, 5->6 hours of work in an 8 hour work day is both normal and acceptable to keep people from burning out and ultimately dropping to the 5->10 hour a week range.

I think there is also this topic of mental work vs. physical work. When I did physical work I could and did work 8-10hrs per day. Even if I wasn’t motivated, just illness was a problem.

But as a software dev I have mostly 5hrs a day of good work, sometimes 9hrs, sometimes 2hrs… then it’s like a block in the brain. Like running out of gas.

Today I mostly just fixed up a tiny shell script. The last couple of weeks have felt like wading through quicksand. I went from amazingly busy in my last project to burned out and „lazy“ in my new project.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#583

Post by ridaj »

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242
ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

I don't know if you've lived through an industry downturn but that's a risk you might want to hedge against. Software/tech has had so much growth that it hasn't really had a bad year yet. Long term, even the dot com crash or the 2008 recession weren't super impactful.

My guess is, you are doing enough and aren't enough of a troublemaker that your boss cares to do anything about it, but you're not fooling anyone either. In a structural downturn, they're getting pressure to downsize and you're at the top of the list. None of your colleagues who move on to better pastures will vouch for you anywhere else because they don't trust you to pull your weight. You find yourself pretty unsupported at that point.

At the end of the day, I personally choose to stay sharp at work because it's my personal ethic, but there's also a real risk component that you may want to consider, although as long as the industry is structurally growing you probably don't have to worry too much about it.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#584

Post by jpindar »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #316
nostrebored wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.

I think 60 hours of debugging a compiler is different than 60 hours of wining and dining executive clients.

Sure, debugging a compiler is more fun.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#586

Post by koilke »

oakfr wrote: post #305
medvezhenok wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is to embrace minimalism / the FIRE lifestyle and hopefully skate by long enough to not have to work by the time the company folds and live off of investments -> then into retirement). I think most "underwork" on the job is a motivational issue and stems from one of a few overlapping reasons: 1) No way to promotion/advancement (dead end job) 2) Overqualified and bored 3) Unclear goals, no feedback, an…

I've read about the FIRE theory time and again. For some reason, I don't buy it. I fail to believe in the plan that consists in building enough FU money to then "be free". Free to do what? What was the plan originally? I think the real meaning of life is to do what you care about today, _with the constraints you have today_.

Free to enjoy life as you wish.

It could be learning mathematics, physics, playing instruments, composing, writing, walking, meditating, making films, going to museums etc. It feels like endless possibilities for me. I think having the freedom to do something that you want to do rather than contractual obligation is one of the wonders of life. It may be different for many and luckily if you live in a place where you have the freedom to choice, those who wish to work can work and some of those who have the privilege of FIRE can do so too.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#588

Post by ltbarcly3 »

dennisy wrote: post #542
ConfessionTime wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However! I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health. Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life. You only have one life, do something with it that is satisfying. Get out of the rat race. This is where my comment about remote work comes into p…

> I can't imagine ever returning to an office in which there is more pressure to spend 8 hours a day sitting in front of my computer. But this is what you are paid for. Do you not feel that this is what you should be doing in the time you are contracted to work?

Actually, no, they can't pay you based on how much time you spend on a task unless you are being paid hourly (and therefore are paid overtime if required to work more than 40 hours per week).

They can ask you to be at work at a certain time, or to do some task a certain number of hours a day, but they CANNOT pay you based on how many hours you spend doing it or they are in violation of labor laws (in the US anyway).

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#589

Post by ctvo »

I run into people like you in the field sometimes. Unless you're actively hindering my efforts at delivering something, I ignore you. If you're assigned a critical task, and you block us, I'll bring it up to stakeholders privately to ensure they understand what you're doing. Sometimes this results in you being fired, most of the time, you just get assigned less important work.

I find people like you unpleasant to be around because I value competency in my peers, so I tend to ignore you socially too, but outside of that I have no opinion on your choices.

To answer your question though, no, not all of us are lying about how much work we do. Some of us enjoy the work, find if fulfilling, and carry a professional pride in doing the work well.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#590

Post by [deleted] »

amichal wrote: post #569

Similar job here. Except I’ve been a consultant billing through to our clients mostly by the hour. I’ve run a key logger on myself for over a decade. While my start and stop times vary wildly I spend between 30 and 45 hours doing something on my computer during a nominal 5 day work week. The app I use for this (RescueTime) classifies the sites and applications I use according to my judgement on if they are productive…

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