Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

news.ycombinator.com

561–570 of 609 posts

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#561
I trust humans more than LLM's. They're like whatever was most popular mixed with hallucinations. I can gauge human credibility better.

I usually search for specific terms, often in quotes. My extra terms are variations on how people might word the question or answer.

Over time, I notice many sites are reliable for specific topics. I'll use site: operator to limit the search to them initially. If it's a research paper, adding "paper" and PDF usually links to it immediately. If government, it's often on a .gov page. And so on.

Search works well for me with these techniques for most of my needs. There has certainly even a drop in quality, with an increase in work, due to them optimizing for what generates ad clicks. That gives me a lot of sites that appear to be helpful but actually arent. I can usually spot and weed them out in one session for a given topic, though, since click farm sites are recognizable (intuitable) once you're used to them.

Finally, I try to follow the law since my Savior, Jesus Christ, requires it where possible. A.I.'s are usually trained with massive copyright infringement with outputs that may be copyright infringement. Search engines link me to the content creator to use directly. The creator also often says if they want it shared or how which I try to respect when I see it mentioned.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#563
post #35

I still prefer tranditional search engines over LLMs but I admit, its results feels worse than it has traditionally. I don't like LLMs for two reasons: * I can't really get a feel for the veracity of the information without double checking it. A lot of context I get from just reading results from a traditional search engine is lost when I get an answer from a LLM. I find it somewhat uncomfortable to just accept the a…

> I can't really get a feel for the veracity of the information without double checking it. This is my main reason for not using LLMs as a replacement for search. I want an accurate answer. I quote often search for legal or regulatory issues, health, scientific issues, specific facts about lots of things. i want authoritative sources.

LLMs remind me of the children's game "Telephone."

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#564
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO an example of a good use case for an LLM, which would be otherwise very hard to search for, is clarifying vague technical concepts. Just yesterday I was trying to remember the name of a vague concept I’d forgotten, with my overall question being: “Is there a technical term in biology for the equilibrium that occurs between plant species producing defensive toxins, and toxin resistance in the insect species that f…

Agreed. I'm increasingly using ChatGPT to research topics. In that way, I can refine my question, drill down, ask for alternatives, supply my own supplementary information, etc. I think of AI as an intelligent search engine / assistant and, outside of simple questions with one very specific answer, it just crushes search engines.

It is extremely dangerous to believe that anything said by an AI assistant is correct.

Even with supposedly authoritative peer-reviewed research papers it is extremely frequent to find errors whenever the authors claim to quote earlier work, because the reality is that most of them do not bother to read carefully their claimed bibliography.

When you get an answer from an AI, the chances greatly increase that the answer regurgitates some errors present in the publications used for training. At least when you get the answer from a real book or research paper, it lists its sources and you can search them to find whether they have been reproduced rightly or wrongly. With an AI-generated answer it becomes much more difficult to check it for truthfulness.

I will give an example of what I mean, on which I happened to stumble today. I have read a chemistry article published in 2022 in a Springer journal. While the article also contained various useful information, it happened to contain a claim that seemed suspicious.

In 1782, the French chemist Guyton de Morveau has invented the word "alumine" (French) = "alumina" (Latin and English), to name what is now called oxide of aluminum, which was called earth of alum at that time ("terra aluminis" in Latin).

The article from 2022 claimed that the word "alumina" had already been used earlier with the same sense, by Andreas Libavius in 1597, who has been thus the creator of this word.

I have found this hard to believe, because the necessity for such a word has appeared only during the 18th century, when the European chemists, starting with the Swedish chemists, have finally gone beyond the level of chemical classification inherited from the Arabs and they have begun to classify all known chemical substances as combinations of a restricted set of primitive substances.

Fortunately, the 2022 article had a detailed bibliography, and using it I was able to find the original work from 1597 and the exact paragraph in it that was referred to. The claim of the 2022 article was entirely false. While the paragraph contained a word "alumina", that was not a singular feminine adjective (i.e. agreeing with "terra") referring to the "earth of alum". Instead of this, it was not a new word, but just the plural of the neuter word "alumen" (= English alum), in the sentence "alums or salts or other similar sour substances can be mixed in", where "alums" meant "various kinds of alum", like "salts" meant "various kinds of salt". Nowhere in the work of Libavius there was any mention of an earth that is a component of alum and that could be extracted from alum (in older chemistry, "earth" was the term for any non-metallic solid substance that neither dissolves in water nor burns in air).

I have given in detail this example, in order to illustrate the kinds of errors that I very frequently encounter whenever some authors claim to quote other works. While this was an ancient quotation, lots of similar errors appear when quoting more recent publications, e.g. when quoting Einstein, Dirac or the like.

I am pretty sure that if I would ask an AI assistant something, the number of errors in the answers will not be less than when reading publications written by humans, but the answers will be more difficult to verify.

Whoever thinks that they can get a quick answer to any important question in a few seconds and be done with it, are naive because the answer to any serious question must be verified thoroughly, otherwise there are great chances that those who trust such answers will just spread more disinformation, like the sources on which the AI has been trained.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#565
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so how does the average person search through vector embedding? I would like to try this out.

I didn't say the average person should use it, I was thinking the search functionality could be implemented that way and save on burning up the planet to tame Moloc.

If it could be implemented that way and would be helpful where Google fails, then why has nobody done this? I’d love to try this out if you can point to a product that does this.

You can criticize LLMs all you want, but the fact is that they provide value to people in ways that alternatives simply don’t. The energy consumption is a concern, but don’t pretend there are viable alternatives when there aren’t.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#566
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm increasingly using ChatGPT to research topics. In that way, I can refine my question, drill down, ask for alternatives, supply my own supplementary information, etc. I think of AI as an intelligent search engine / assistant and, outside of simple questions with one very specific answer, it just crushes search engines.

It is extremely dangerous to believe that anything said by an AI assistant is correct. Even with supposedly authoritative peer-reviewed research papers it is extremely frequent to find errors whenever the authors claim to quote earlier work, because the reality is that most of them do not bother to read carefully their claimed bibliography. When you get an answer from an AI, the chances greatly increase that the answ…

Appreciate your perspective. To be clear, I'm using it to become a better small game developer and not relying on it to answer anything I would classify as an "important question". Moreover, I don't take everything AI tells me to be 100% accurate (and I never copy/paste the response). Rather, I use it as an assistant with which I can have a back and forth "conversation" to acquire other perspectives.

Despite a lot of effort, I'm just not a highly skilled developer and I don't have any friends / colleagues I can turn to for assistance (I don't know a single software developer or even another person who enjoys video games). While resources like StackOverflow are certainly useful, having answers tailored to my specific situation really accelerates progress.

I'm not trying to cure cancer here and much of what would be considered the "best approach" for a small game architecture is unique to the developer. As such, AI is an incredible resource to lean on and get information tailored to my unique use case (here is my code...how does {topic} apply to my situation?")

And yes, I find errors from time to time, but that is good. It keeps me on my toes and forces me to really understand the response / perspective.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#567
post #537
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm increasingly using ChatGPT to research topics. In that way, I can refine my question, drill down, ask for alternatives, supply my own supplementary information, etc. I think of AI as an intelligent search engine / assistant and, outside of simple questions with one very specific answer, it just crushes search engines.

I don't see it as crushing the search engines. I use the LLMs to find the right search terms, and that combination makes search engines much more useful. LLM by themselves give me very superficial explanations that don't answer what I want, but they are also a great starting point that will eventually guide me to the answers.

Likely because I'm asking specific Python development questions, I'm getting specific answers (and typically 2-3 variations) that I can drill down into. That response is likely different than for a more general question with a wider array of possible answers.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#568
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but that doesn't mitigate the problem I have with using LLMs as a search engine replacement. The issue I have is that LLMs "predigest" things and present you with the sources that are relevant to its response. However, it still blinds you to the larger picture. Providing supporting sources is all well and good, but doesn't help you with the larger view. I want the larger view.

I find the exact opposite, LLMs are much better in giving larger views, google will just spit out whatever it matches with no concept of a larger view and no way to ask google to broaden it's search around a concept.

Well, if you're comparing LLMs to Google, you may be right. I find Google to be borderline worthless. But compared to other search engines, I find LLM responses to be very lacking and restrictive.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#569
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the training was weighted to favor text it learned from more "reliable" or "professional" resources, which in the case of products, would be official sales listings that talk about how great their product is.

I don't think that's a big part of it, although it may be included. In general, the models lean towards being Yes-Men on just about every topic, including things without official sources. I think this is a byproduct of them being trained to be friendly and agreeable. Nobody wants a product that's rude or contrarian, and this puts a huge finger on the scale. I imagine an a model unfiltered for safety and attitude and…

Do people really prefer Yes-Men models? It appears that you are right but I find it surprising.

I very much prefer more disagreeable, critical models. GPT 4o and o3-mini will sometimes not tell you that you, e.g., didn't attach a file you asked to be analyzed and will instead hallucinate its contents, presumably not to upset you. Of course, their hallucinations are way more annoying.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use search engines?

#570
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say the average person should use it, I was thinking the search functionality could be implemented that way and save on burning up the planet to tame Moloc.

If it could be implemented that way and would be helpful where Google fails, then why has nobody done this? I’d love to try this out if you can point to a product that does this. You can criticize LLMs all you want, but the fact is that they provide value to people in ways that alternatives simply don’t. The energy consumption is a concern, but don’t pretend there are viable alternatives when there aren’t.

I don't have insight on what goes on inside Google - they may well be doing this at some level, but their business isn't finding stuff, it's selling ads, so getting the search right is a very low priority.

The LLM people are heavily invested in ever bigger models to keep the research money flowing in, it wouldn't make sense to release a service that undercuts that.

that leaves independent actors - presumably building and maintaining an up to date database is difficult, so only the big search engines do.

Post reply on HN