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Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#561

Post by pjmlp »

roca wrote: post #546
pjmlp wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same applies with manually memory management, you get instead slower allocators unless you replace the standard library with something else, and the joy of tracking down double frees and memory leaks.

I'm using Rust, so no double frees and no accidental forgetting to call free(). Of course you can still have memory leaks, but that's true in GC languages too.

That is not manually memory management though, and it also comes with its own set of issues, like everyone that was tried to write GUIs or games in Rust is painfully aware of.

There is no free lunch no matter what one picks.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#562

Post by GauntletWizard »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #550
cambalache wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me neither, I'm not going to lie and say that I had 40 applications opened, but I DID have 5-10 apps using the web with 0 issues (A browser+IRC App + Email Client+MICQ+MSN Messenger+Kazaam/Napster+Winamp in stream mode). Very very few of the web and desktop applications of today are as snappy and user-friendly as classic Winamp.

And yet, people stopped using it. I used to use it all the time. Now I use Spotify instead. I'm not sure I want to go back to curating my own collection of mp3's again.

In a better world, you really wouldn't need to. Winamp was great - The weak point was always the playlist editor, but winamp's interface for simply playing music and seeing what was up next was wonderful. Spotify could provide you with a playlist plugin that simply gave a list of URLs, or let you download one that lasted X hours.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#563

Post by dep_b »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #550
cambalache wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me neither, I'm not going to lie and say that I had 40 applications opened, but I DID have 5-10 apps using the web with 0 issues (A browser+IRC App + Email Client+MICQ+MSN Messenger+Kazaam/Napster+Winamp in stream mode). Very very few of the web and desktop applications of today are as snappy and user-friendly as classic Winamp.

And yet, people stopped using it. I used to use it all the time. Now I use Spotify instead. I'm not sure I want to go back to curating my own collection of mp3's again.

Mobile phones happened. Tiny memories while always being connected.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#564

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

vb6sp6 wrote: post #415
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VSCode is Electron? I had no idea. That’s the only electron app I use willingly then! Good job MS!

The first clue is a text editor that uses 180mb of ram :)

I’m under the impression it’s striving to be an IDE.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#565

Post by hootbootscoot »

hootbootscoot wrote: post #125
egypturnash wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack desktop app is almost 1 gig in size. On a whim I just checked how big the copy of Adium still lingering in my Mac is: 60 megs. And Ripcord (a native discord/slack client) is a mere 40.

OTOH, if you are using Slack, you probably deserve it :P "The emperor wears no clothes" and all... paying for threaded messaging, hmmm that's up there with To-Do MVC and Hello World in complexity... well, ok it's a bit higher. Not to mention their billing system lol...

not saying you have any choice in the matter of using Slack or not, but I can assure you that Slack software is aware of their bloat and inefficiency and they don't care.

The core task Slack is charged with WAS done 2 decades ago with significantly lower resource usage?

Why does this matter? because Slack is not your main productivity app (I HOPE) it's just a background process, effectively, most of the time, a communication channel you keep open and check in with from time to time.

Being able to keep an app open while you run your main productivity suite is a clear win. Slack loses in this respect.

But go on, downvote and flag me some more for speaking truth to power... it's rather obvious, i would say...

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#566

Post by frobozz »

userbinator wrote: post #464
hombre_fatal wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a way for end-users to actually make judgements about application efficiency, there will never be any real pressure to make efficient, native apps. Though the only measurement I think people would actually care about is battery impact, and even that is pretty much hidden away on phones except to the few people who actually look. But the other problem is: who cares if Discord or a browser's HN tab aren't optim…

Without a way for end-users to actually make judgements about application efficiency, there will never be any real pressure to make efficient, native apps. I'd say it's more of a "without a way for end-users to compare " --- the average user has no idea how much computing resources are necessary, so if they see their email client taking 15 seconds to load an email and using several GB of RAM, they won't know any bett…

Even further: without a way for end users to take action based on that comparison.

If I decide that I don't want to use Slack because it drains my battery, then I can't take part in Slack conversations.

Because Slack is the go-to chat application for so many teams, excluding myself from those conversations is not feasible.

End result: I carry on using Slack.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#567

Post by dusted »

I think there is, and as the "desktop dies" I think we will be left with a higher percentage of users expecting high performance native apps, when "normal people" migrate to tablets and smartphones for all of their tasks. I see the possibility of a resurgence of native apps based on that. or maybe it is just wishful thinking.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#568

Post by hootbootscoot »

com2kid wrote: post #192
hootbootscoot wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about "being aware of what your abstraction layers cost, and being palpably aware of every needless contortion you create" know what everything does. call if from up on high? fine, but only if you literally can trace that high level call down to the machine code it emits :D C compiler suites can do that no problem "gcc -S mycode.c" For an appropriate dose of humility, so that you know that I'm not elevating mysel…

Sqlite is inanely well tested, incredibly lightweight, and will be more reliable than the vast vast majority of flat file configuration systems.

Ummm Context here is "desktop software" configuration management will be key-value and you needn't bring SQL in for that purpose.

Let's not bring "in-house web app" into the picture just yet.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#569

Post by hootbootscoot »

ghettoimp wrote: post #491
hootbootscoot wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about "being aware of what your abstraction layers cost, and being palpably aware of every needless contortion you create" know what everything does. call if from up on high? fine, but only if you literally can trace that high level call down to the machine code it emits :D C compiler suites can do that no problem "gcc -S mycode.c" For an appropriate dose of humility, so that you know that I'm not elevating mysel…

The "all things are nails, always use hammers" mentality is almost explicitly what I am arguing against. My mention of SQL was particularly deliberate. It's an especially successful high level declarative language with clear semantics. Implementations provide sophisticated execution engines for optimizing and efficiently running queries. It is quite a lovely separation of concerns that gives you great flexibility and…

agreed.

a well DESIGNED technological stack WILL allow for high-level control of low-level structures.

Electron and Browser-based apps make a deliberate tradeoff that may be suitable for some kinds of apps (Balena Etcher, as I mentioned. You click a button and some process starts and alerts you when it's done.)

I would simply say that the OP should reverse the question: "in which cases can an electron app suffice for a desktop application" and not presume the death of desktop apps.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#570

Post by fomine3 »

smileysteve wrote: post #494
thrower123 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeting Windows alone gets you 90% of the desktop market. 95% if you make it run reasonably in Wine. This argument is often used, but it's an excuse. Anything that you need to run on a desktop can't be used effectively on a touch screen anyway, so phones and tablets don't really count for serious software. (Writing this comment is stretching the bounds of what I can reasonably do on an IPhone).

95% of a market that has shrunk nearly 50% over the last decade. In many ways, the consumer and non specialty business are post desktop. Turns out documents, email, and other communication apps cover 90% of use cases. Anything that requires major performance gets rendered in a cloud and delivered by these other apps.

really shrunk?
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