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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#551
I've been a designer/developer for 20+ years.

What I've learnt over the years is that people don't last around because they're the most brilliant, but because they're good people. Honesty, integrity and a sense of having each other's back is important, as important as raw skills.

I've worked with extremely smart people and people that aren't that bright, but committed and helpful. Companies are organisms made of humans. Not all ranks and not all positions require the one-type of human. That is a fallacy most Startups tend to pretend.

When it comes to personal productivity, a big part of it is your own assessment of what you've actually done today/this week/this month. There are weeks where you actually have actionable work that you can push through in a reasonable amount of time. Some other weeks, you have to rely on other team, other people with different priorities and you're struggling to measure any positive outcome, yet you've been very busy.

Overall, my advice is make sure you're a net positive to your team and the company. Cut the crap, and just make sure that you carry your weight in advancing the company. Sometimes, it means staying out of the way, sometimes it means assisting others, sometimes it means coding for 8 hours straight.

The larger the company, the larger the team, the less an individual can just sit down and do the thing. It's unfortunate but that's the way the industry grew. So much money flowed into this industry over the years and now we carry a ton of dead weight that is yet necessary for this industry to run.

The fact is, with multiple teams and work streams, it's virtually impossible for anyone to claim they're 100% busy every week, or that they're achieving a lot. We have to cut the acronyms and keywords bullshit sometimes and just admit the fact that some weeks we make great strides and some weeks we just pedal in the sand; and it's not anyone's particular fault (if it is, repeatedly, then they need to go). Because overall, most people want to feel like they're achieving great things, no one feels good feeling useless. So enabling people to achieve things net positive is extremely important, as much as cutting dead weight. No one sets off to pedal in the sand and feel like a fraud. If you're in a deadlock situation, approach your manager and say so, maybe you can transition to a different position or look for a different position where you can make a difference. Overall you only have one life, and work is a massive part of that, so honesty towards your own bottom line is as important as the business'.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to point out that this > I truly believed in the mission, worked hard, was paid a lot, achieved great things and was overall very satisfied. and this > used to leave at 5pm sharp are not mutually exclusive. We have this weird thing in tech where we think that, to be passionate, you have to work yourself into the ground. But this is stupid. There's organizational psych research going back decades showing t…

> Just wanted to point out that this > > I truly believed in the mission, worked hard, was paid a lot, achieved great things and was overall very satisfied. > and this > > used to leave at 5pm sharp > are not mutually exclusive. For some people it is actually. I'm an evening person and my personal productivity starts increasing during the afternoon. If I leave at 5pm, I leave right when I reach the peak. So when I ca…

You can start working late in such cases. We have a lot of people who come to office at 1pm, and stay till 8pm.

If you are instead the kind of person who really works hard when "in the zone", you can try working 10-12 hours a day when you are motivated and then take a vacation/work 3 hours a day when you are out of your zone. That way you can charge up for your next "in zone" phase.

Kids get used to their parents being there all day during some days and not being there during others. As long as you can be there for them when there is something important for them, they and you would be fine.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My g/f earns about a third of what I do while actually working a tough, stressful job in full time" There is only one thing i learned, life is deeply unfair, meritocracy is a myth, and noone knows why most things are the way they are.

well, if someone is a janitor, and the other one is a software developer, can you actually compare them properly? if so, then training somebody to become a SEng involves more costs, than training smb to mop a floor. the guy u responding didn't mention the job his gf does, thus assuming that she's the same software dev, would be a wrong thing to do, i believe. besides that, she even may obtain the same level, the same…

  > that being said there is nothing to discuss about meritocracy, yet i agree with the fact that things are not that meritocratic as we want them to be. why? because there is always an asymmetry in a market, and contracts may always have some flaws (for e.g.: lemon market).
i guess that can be one issue, but my experience has been that what usually undermines "meritocracy" is basically office/org politics...

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#554
20% of the people do 80% of the work.

Unfortunately the 80% tend to be paid similarly to the 20%. But high performers tend to move up faster, of course.

I've always found the imbalance to be pretty unjust, but it comes down to lack of certainty into individual contributions. If you confidently knew that person A was twice as productive as person B, you would be willing to pay a higher price to retain them.

If you're savvy and particularly productive, you can use your productivity as leverage in negotiations though. But has to be proven on the job

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#555
It depends heavily on the job, particularly on management. I will work more if I have a selection of tasks to work on and some choice throughout the day on what to work on. This is especially true if I was part of the decision-making process that led to being assigned those tasks in the first place.

But if I have just one thing to work on, and it's something I'm not interested in and don't particularly want to work on? Yeah, probably not putting in a particularly full week.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#556
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud. Taking time from people with expectation of opportunity to build career by building things , while not providing that opportunity to build career by building things is Fraud. fixed it for you. j/k this is not constructive. if i join a company and their internal dysfunction gets in the way of me getting projects done that fu…

"The lady left her door open, how was I supposed to know she wanted to keep her furniture? What's wrong with these stupid cops who say I can't take the TV?" This is some serious gaslighting. Dysfunction is normal. Teams that are unproductive because of problems, i.e. 'the vehicle is stuck in the mud' are expected. To the extent the problem is known, there's at least some attempt to redress the issue, then obviously p…

> The OP has put lying about how much he does literally in the title of the post.

it reads to me like the op is doing some introspection and making use of self-deprecating hyperbole in the process while looking to recruit thoughts from others about general trends in the industry.

if i were to make the same sorts of bad faith assumptions that you are, i could come back with a very simple:

"what if this whole posting is just astroturf for someone looking to make a quick buck by instilling productivity fears in insecure leaders so that they may sell more remote worker monitoring creepware?"

but i don't honestly believe that, because assumptions of bad faith, straw man arguments and gotcha style microquoting are not constructive.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My g/f earns about a third of what I do while actually working a tough, stressful job in full time" There is only one thing i learned, life is deeply unfair, meritocracy is a myth, and noone knows why most things are the way they are.

I would suggest that you keep studying life. From what I've learned: life was never promised as being fair. Civilization is a thin veneer over the Jungle, but it does try (without ever achieving 100% success), to provide fairness. One can debate where in the world Civilization is thriving vs. struggling (it's mostly struggling). Meritocracy does exist and does work, except where it is undermined (i.e. "Equity", or as…

> Meritocracy does exist and does work, except where it is undermined (i.e. "Equity", or assigning merit based on immutable physical traits like race and gender).

Allowing inheritance from one generation to another is an immediate disqualifier for meritocracy as well. As is the existence of private schooling bought with money.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#558
I've noticed people bullshitting at stand ups and I've done it myself at the one somewhat toxic place I worked at that mandated them. But never consistently over a longer stretch of time. I think occasionally this is normal, and as a (now) CTO I accept it, we're not macnines.

That said, I had a similar feeling once, and then I actually started tracking my time, just for myself. Even reading HN I counted as "personal development". While I did spend about as little time coding as I thought I would, I was surprised how off my feeling about how much time I work was. I easily tracked 10 more hours per week than I thought I was doing. Not sure you're interested in trying that, but I can really recommend it. Made me a lot more conscious how I spend my time. 10 hours per week solving important problems beats 40 hours of stuff that leads nowhere.

While it's hard to count, I also wouldn't discount all the thinking I, and probably others, do both consciously and unconsciously, that allow us to get several hours of work done in half an hour, already having found the right approach without touching the keyboard.

Anyway, regardless of what hours you actually work - if the company you work for is happy with your results and you're happy with the pay, I would argue that's all that matters. Great for you if 5-10 hours per week is actually all it takes for you.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#559

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

processing for one or two days to prepare productive working that takes 30 minutes sounds a bit extreme. but I get the gist and second it. I hate developers you immediately jump at any task coding right away. they usually actually get the stuff done but the solution is ugly and contrived instead of elegant and simple. that's also what makes me skeptical of devs obsessing about typing (layouts, keyboards, editors, ...…

> that's also what makes me skeptical of devs obsessing about typing (layouts, keyboards, editors, ...) to optimize it further.

Those things are a form of procrastination. With your points you should be sceptical for those who just go for VS Code or whatever MS sets up for them nicely in 2 minutes, not those who configure Emacs or Vim.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#560
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is IC? Google tells me Interstitial Cystitis, but my hunch tells me it's something else.

Individual Contributor. Means that you're only writing code, not managing people at all. It's the opposite of a (pure) Engineering Manager, who only manages and writes no code / produces no design. Most mid level people (for example L6-L7 at Google/Facebook) are simultaneously managers and engineers, thus somewhere between IC and EM. Almost all low level people (L3-L5) are ICs, almost all high level people (L8+) are…

Thank you for the answer! Much obliged.
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