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Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

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Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#551
post #421

Here is a rule of thumb that will be familiar to many who manage risk in a professional capacity: The time to get creative is when you face a capped downside on the one hand, and an uncapped upside on the other. The time to get conservative is when you face the opposite condition. The reason for this rule is that creative policies almost never work; but when they work, they have a much higher chance of working extrao…

This is a smart observation. The UK is now taking the conservative view because it's the long term view, that this will likely become a recurring seasonal virus (or a one-time virus that keeps knocking on your door until you get it), and therefore there's not much point in a national "lockdown" to "stop" the virus, because as soon as a nation relaxes its lockdown the virus will simply pick up right where it left off.…

This approach is definitely negligent to the point of criminality. There's no practical way to keep younger and healthy people away from older or less-healthy people and once the virus spreads to the less healthy people it will likely spread further.

(I've been doing the arithmetic for this stuff all day but here goes).

The UK's population is about 66 million. Sixty percent infected is 39,600,000. A 1% death rate (which, per above, you can't escape by "just infect young people" or something, jeesh) implies 396,000 dying. That many people dying, spread out evenly over a year is 1084 people dying per day but 10,840 people arrive sick at hospitals. Which is something the UK surely can't deal with. So with the health care system overwhelmed, the death goes to 5% or more and you have 2 millions deaths, much the WWII casualties etc.

Also, the "herd immunity" reasoning is wrong in the sense that we don't cultivate herd immunity to black plague, Ebola or small pox because they are deadly enough that we containment. Covids is in this special deadly "sweet spot" where it doesn't seem deadly enough to isolate in small area but too deadly to allow to run rampant across a city or nation. The answer that's forced on nation is mass city-by-city quarantine. Harsh but China's Wuhan experience was nowhere near the horrors that this "herd immunity" plan promises.

Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#554
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No no, I understand that. But the thinking is, and it seems to be backed by data, that the health system will be able to cope with a full-population maximal pandemic, as long as it is limited to the much less vulnerable segments of the population. It really doesn't seem that you're getting it, because the whole point of this exercise is that it's quite patently obvious that no health care service in the world is ab…

> the expected incidence of cases that require medical care. Among the general population! Among people under 50, the best data we have is that the fraction needing ICU care is something like 0.2% (I think, I'd have to look it up again). The intent is to quarantine the at-risk and let it propagate in the "safe". I genuinely think it's you who's failed to understand the plan. You're arguing against something that is n…

> Among people under 50, the best data we have is that the fraction needing ICU care is something like 0.2%

Any chance you remember where you found this statistic? I have been looking for any details on hospitalization rates by age range, but haven't had luck so far.

Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#555

Here is a rule of thumb that will be familiar to many who manage risk in a professional capacity: The time to get creative is when you face a capped downside on the one hand, and an uncapped upside on the other. The time to get conservative is when you face the opposite condition. The reason for this rule is that creative policies almost never work; but when they work, they have a much higher chance of working extrao…

This is NOT a creative experiment. It's exactly the same as everything that's being done, no one knows what's best, they are all creative or none are. We have no idea what the downsides are for massive lockdowns. Look at the deaths that happened over summer in Britain when the heatwave struck. What will happen to the elderly in a lockdown? Lockdowns are not conservative. They are what the rest of the world's doing so…

Lockdown has been shown to work in wuhan and china, except for the political willingness and population willingness in western democracies.

Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#557
post #427
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we sure that you're immune once you've been infected?

No. There might be even opposite effect - antibodies might make subsequent reinfections easier. That happened with some previous coronavirus. As well as with some vaccinations that didn't generate sufficient amount of antibodies - some kids acquired some illness much faster than non-vaccinated ones because the vaccine wasn't strong enough. Current coronavirus has already multiple distinct strains. Even if they don't…

> [...] antibodies might make subsequent reinfections easier. That happened with some previous coronavirus.

I never read about this, can you point me to a source, please?

Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. These estimates are of overall fatality based on number of people diagnoised. Not based on those who required intensive treatment. That means we have crude estimate on death rate for people showing some symptoms. Crude in a way not everyone in the pool is recovered, or dead for that matter, so it's not possible to be that accurate yet, but it will only be higher not lower.

Wouldn’t we only have a crude estimate on the death rate for people diagnosed with the virus? If we find that many people are not getting tested for the virus and just recover by themselves, then it’s possible for the fatality rate to be lower.

Well, those asymptom case can also infect others. In all likeliness they will infect others, multiple others. So if epidemiological root trauce is done right, we would find those asymptom carrier.

Re: Ask HN: Is UK government insane or genius?

#560

Here is a discussion on Channel 4 on the approach taken by the UK government. https://youtu.be/C98FmoZVbjs?t=590 Debating are: - John Edmunds: a professor in the Centre for Mathematical Modelling of Infectious Diseases, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine - Tomas Pueyo: his modelling of the pandemic has gone viral on the web: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-peop... During the debate,…

There is no “UK strategy”, just like the number of cases in the US is much higher than the stats say but there are no tests for ordinary people. The “UK strategy” is “let old people die”. That “strategy” will be scrapped in the next day or two. Because it’s dumb. It’s like some “theoretical” thing that ignores what’s actually happening and what has happened before. Everyone is going to be Italy. Unless they’re China…

China was Italy before Italy was Italy. 400M people locked down. But they showed it works.
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