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Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

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Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#541
Sysadmin here. Thats what we used to be called. Then some fads came, some went. DevOps, SRE. Etc.

I have notes on particular areas I am focusing on, but I have a small set of general notes on this, and they seem to apply to you SWEs also.

Headline: Remember data is the new oil Qualifier: It's really all about IP portfolios these days

1) Business Acument: How does the tech serve the business/client needs, from a holistic perspective of the business. (eg: sysadmins have long had to big picture finance, ops, strategy, industry, etc knowledge) - aka - turn tech knowledge into business knowledge

2) Leadership Presence: Ability to meet w/c-suite, engineers, clients, etc, and speak their languages, understand their issues, and solve their issues. (ex: explain ROI impacts for proposals to c-suite)

3) Emotional Intelligence: Relationship building in particular. (note: this is the thing I neglected the most in my career and regreted it!)

4) Don't be afraid to use force multiplier tools. In this discussion, that means LLMs, but it can mean other things too. Adopt early, keep up with tooling, but focus on the fundamental tech and don't get bogged down into proprietary stockholm syndrome. Augment yourself to be better, don't try to replace yourself.

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Now, I know thats a simplistic list, but you asked so I gave you what I had. What I am doing (besides trying to get my mega-uber-huge-sideproject off the ground), is recentering on certain areas I don't think are going anywhere: on-prem, datacenter buildouts, high-compute, ultra-low-latency, scalable systems, energy, construction of all the previous things, and the banking knowledge to round it all out.

If my side-project launch fails, I'm even considering data-center sales instead of the tech side. Why? I'm tired of rescuing the entire business to no fanfare while sales people get half my salary in a bonus. Money aside, I can still learn and participate in the builds as sales (see it happen all the time).

In other words, I took my old-school niche set of knowledge, and adopted it over the years as the industry changed, focusing on what I do best (in this case, operations - aka - the ones who actually get shit into prod, and fix it when it's broke, regardless of the title associated).

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like they caught up because I have posted this before including in chatGPT. All that means is you have to change it up slightly. Unfortunately “change it up slightly” is not good enough for people to do anything with, and anything more specific just trains the LLM eventually so it stops proving the point. I cannot load this link though.

It also means that you should update your belief about the reasoning capabilities of LLMs at least slightly. if disconfirming evidence doesn’t shake your beliefs at all, you dont really have beliefs, you have an ideology.

The observation here is far too easily explained in other ways to be considered particularly strong evidence.

Memorizing a solution to a classic brainteaser is not the same as having the reasoning skills needed to solve it. Finding out separate solutions for related problems might allow someone to pattern-match, but not to understand. This is about as true for humans as for LLMs. Lots of people ace their courses, even at university level, while being left with questions that demonstrate a stunning lack of comprehension.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion people that harp on about how LLMs have been game changer for them are the people that put themselves as never actually having built anything sophisticated enough that a team of engineers can work and extend on for years.

Yep, as cynical and demeaning that must sound to them, I am arriving at the same conclusion.

My last project made millions for the bank I was working at within the first 2 years and is now a case study at one of our extremely large vendors who you have definitely heard of. I conceptualised it, designed it, wrote the most important code. My boss said my contribution would last decades. You persist with making statements about people in the discussion, when you know nothing about their context aside from one opinion on one issue. Focus on the argument not the people.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#544
At their current scores, LLMs will not replace software developers. They might automate away some of the mundane tasks, but that's about it. LLM also makes good developers more productive and bad developers less likely to ship. They generate lots of code; some of it is good, some of it is bad and lot of it is really bad.

Now this assumes that LLMs plateau around their current scores. While open models are catching up to closed ones (like Open AI), we are still to see a real jump in consciousness compared to GPT-4. That, and operating LLMs is too damn expensive. If you have explored bolt.new for a little while, you'll find out quick enough that a developer becomes cheaper as your code base gets larger.

The way I see it

1. LLM do not plateau and are fully capable of replacing software developers: There is nothing I can or most of us can do about this. Most people hate software developers and the process of software development itself. They'd be very happy to trade us in an instant. Pretty much all software developers are screwed in the next 3-4 years but it's only a matter of time before it hits any other desk field (management, design, finance, marketing, etc...). According to history, we get a world war (especially if these LLMs are open in the wild) and one can only hope he is safe.

2. LLMs plateau around current levels. They are very useful as a power booster but they can also produce lots of garbage (both in text and in code). There will be an adjustment time but software developers will still be needed. Probably in the next 2-3 years when everyone realizes the dead end, they'll stop pouring money into compute and business will be back as usual.

tl;dr: current tech is not enough to replace us. If tech becomes good enough to replace us, there is nothing that can be done about it.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure it can change. Ultimately programming we be completely lost; we are going to hand-wave and command computers inside us or inside the walls of our houses. This absolutely will happen. But my issue is with people that claim we are either at that point, or very nearly it. ...No, we are not. We are not even 10% there. I am certain LLMs will be a crucial part of such a general AI one day but it's quite funny how…

Plenty of jobs for coming by to read the logs across 6 systems when the LLM applications break and can't fix themselves.

The question is how those jobs will pay. That seems like something that might not be able to demand a living wage.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are broadly useful in the sense that they generally improve productivity across the industry. They already right now save enormous amounts of developer time, But is that actually a true statement. Are there actual studies to back that up? AI is hyped to the moon right now. It is really difficult to separate the hype from reality. There are ancedotal reports of ai helping with coding, but there are also ancedotal re…

> Are there actual studies to back that up? I am aware of an equal number of studies about the time saved overall by use of LLMs, and time saved overall by use of syntax highlighting. In fact, here's a study claiming syntax highlighting in IDEs does not help code comprehension: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-017-9579-0 Shall we therefore conclude that syntax highlighting is not useful, that develope…

> Shall we therefore conclude that syntax highlighting is not useful, that developers who use syntax highlighting are just part of the IDE hype train, and that anecdotal reports of syntax highlighting being helpful are counterbalanced by anecdotal reports of $IDE having incorrect syntax highlighitng on $Esoteric_file_format?

Yes. We should conclude that syntax highlighting is not useful in languages that the syntax highlighter does not support. I think basically everyone would agree with this statement.

Similarly an llm that worked 100% of the time and could solve any problem would be pretty useful. (Or at least worked correctly as often as syntax highlighting in situations where it is actually used does)

However that's not the world we live in. Its a reasonable question to ask if llm is good enough yet where the productivity gain outweighs the productivity lost.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#547
Short term defense is learning about, and becoming an expert in, using LLMs in products.

Longer term defense doesn't exist. If Software Engineering is otherwise completely automated by LLMs, we're in AGI territory, and likely recursive self-improvement plays out (perhaps not AI-foom, by huge uptick in capability / intelligence per month / quarter).

In AGI territory, the economy, resource allocation, labor vs. capital all transition into a new regime. If problems that previously took hundreds of engineers working over multiple years can now be built autonomously within minutes, then there's no real way to predict the economic and social dynamics that result from that.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there some expectation that these things won't improve? I definitely expect them to improve. But I also think the point at which they can actually replace a senior programmer is pretty much the exact point at which they can replace any knowledge worker, at which point western society (possibly all society) is in way deeper shit than just me being out of a job. > This is ego speaking. It definitely isn't. LLMs ar…

> LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test If that statement isn't coming from ego, then where is it coming from? It's provably true that LLM's can generate working code. They've been trained on billions of examples. Developers seem to focus on the set of cases that LLM's produce code that doesn't work, and use that as evidence that these tools are "useless".

> It's provably true that LLM's can generate working code

They produce mostly working code, often with odd design decisions that the bot can't fully justify.

The difficult part of coding is cultivating a mental model of the problem + solution space. When you let an LLM write code for you, your mental model falls behind. You can read the new code closely, internalize it, double-check the docs, and keep your mental model up to date (which takes longer than you think), or you can forge ahead, confident that it all more or less looks right. The second option is easier, faster, and very tempting, and it is the reason why various studies have found that code written with LLM assistance introduces more bugs than code written without.

There are plenty of innovations that have made programming a little bit faster (autocomplete, garbage collection, what-have-you), but none of them were a silver bullet. LLMs aren't either. The essential complexity of the work hasn't changed, and a chat bot can't manage it for you. In my (admittedly limited) experience with code assistants, I've found that the faster you move with an LLM, the more time you have to spend debugging afterwards, and the more difficult that process becomes.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#549
What does it mean to be a software engineer? You know the syntax, standard library, and common third party libraries of your domain. You know the runtime, and the orchestration around multiple instances of your runtime. You know how to communicate between these instances and with third-party runtimes like databases and REST APIs.

A large model knows all of this as well. We already rely on generative language model conversations to fill in the knowledge gaps that Googling for documentation (or “how do I do X?” stackoverflow answers) filled.

What’s harder is debugging. A lot of debugging is guesswork and action taking, note-taking, and brain-storming for possible ideas as to why X crashes on Y input.

Bugs that boil down to isolating a component and narrowing down what’s not working are hard. Being able to debug them could be the moat that will protect us SWEs from redundancy. Alternatively, pioneering all the new ways of getting reproducible builds and reproducible environments will be the route to eliminating this class of bug entirely, or at least being able to confidently say that some bug was probably due to bad memory, bad power supplies, or bad luck.

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