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Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

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531–540 of 642 posts

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#531
post #84

I would be careful of overestimating the amount of stimulant use based on comments and emails here. People who use a lot of stimulants tend to love talking about themselves and often have a belief that anyone successful must be taking stimulants secretly. It plays into the motivation of most stimulant users which is that the stimulants have given them a special cheat code in life. I worked in construction in my young…

Stimulants aren't my scene so I don't really know how prevalent they are in tech (but it's never been in my face, at least not compared to when I was in high school). However, marijuana and alcohol are freaking everywhere. Second week at a big company and I had a coworker showing me, among other things, pictures of his pot plantation. Plenty of folks vaped at work (some to the extent that they were incapable of doing their jobs).

As for alcohol, San Francisco is a hard drinking town. In other countries if you get a cocktail it will be very carefully measured. Here? Outside of some artisan hipster joints you get hilariously unbalanced drinks. We had a drug/alcohol free policy at work but still had a beer fridge or two. Off-sites were generally open bar. 1:1 meetings? Often at the nearest bar (which typically lasted 1-2 drinks). Weekly team off-site lunches? Booze. First day on the job? Let's go to Kozy Kar (ugh) to celebrate with our high profile investor. Friday night? Let's go to Martuni's and get blitzed. CEO is too drunk to stand? Don't worry he's still good to drive. Hardly Strictly with the coworkers? Sure, let's make a pitcher of margaritas first.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#532
post #272
post #251

Please highlight if you can how questions of brain health are often ignored exactly because people seem productive. Learning to do good work under too much stress and with too little sleep is a big part of the problem. We condition ourselves to get the work done, then compensate with drugs and alcohol. But since we're productive, the latter is not seen as a problem. The pattern is repeating itself all over top univer…

I completely agree and absolutely intend to discuss that in the book, thank you. When you say "brain health" do you mean actual neurological changes taking place in the brain, or underlying mental health issues like depression and anxiety?

"When you say "brain health" do you mean actual neurological changes taking place in the brain, or underlying mental health issues like depression and anxiety?"

I've been looking closely at this distinction between mind and brain for over a decade and I have to say the evidence is very thin as to nature vs. nurture wrt anxiety and depression. Moreover, ask any professed expert about the differences between chronic stress and "generalized" or otherwise anxiety, on the one hand, and sleep disturbances and depression on the other. The more certain they seem of the answer you more you know they are not honest arbiters.

The most recent work on sleep suggests a glymphatic system that washes toxins from the brain especially well during sleep. More to your question, the best work I've seen suggests that many mental health concerns can not be treated well if there's an underlying sleep disorder.

Taking a step back, if any person is under a lot of stress AND not sleeping well, and for years on end, the distinction between mind and brain and body would seem to matter little. They are suffering and in need of serious help and likely to self-medicate. However, doctors still today do not know how to treat sleep or stress concerns and specialists are all over the place, from therapists to neurologists to psychiatrists and behavioral health specialists.

Feel free to reach out to me personally. My contact info is in my profile.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#533

I'll add a data point, though it's almost entirely negative. I've been at Google over 10 years and have yet to come across a person using illegal hard drugs. I can think of three people with serious drinking problems. There's been a drinking culture (many offices have beer on tap), but I see that changing, as people are more conscious of the negative effects. A bunch of people use marijuana, but off-hours. I haven't…

I personally know engineers at Google who drink very heavily and do drugs including ketamine, coke, shrooms and acid.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logged in to upvote this. Birds of a feather flock together. I’ve personally never come across anyone who (admits) to using anything stronger than Redbull. In fact, we have some employees who don’t even drink coffee, opting for “natural” stimulants which come with less of a crash. Yerba Mate seems particularly popular these days. However, I may be in my own bubble; I’m very interested in seeing what you find!

Mate is the 'same' as coffee, in that it's just caffeine. There is some research to say that the mate derived caffeine is largely an isomer of caffeine, in that the molecule is shaped differently. This is then used to explain why mate is more potent to users without a habituation to coffee derived caffeine. However, the research is still ongoing and the isomer theory is not yet proved, AFAIK. Likely it's just a place…

Mate is hard to prepare right. I think a large part of people’s complaints about the taste is because it’s steeped for too long. Even "upscale" cafes frequently make it wrong.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#535
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I love about working from home is that I can take long naps. I'm usually far more productive after taking a much needed nap than trying to drink coffee/tea and power through it.

Have you tried an espresso nap? It works great. Drink an espresso when you're feeling tired and go to sleep straight away. 15 mins later you'll be awake and alert but also rested.

Huh. Didn't know about this until I read the Vox article in the comment below.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#536
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not at all set up to sleep during the working day", but I assume you mean that it would be difficult to find a comfortable place to sleep. At a place I worked at previously, I asked if they had any quiet rooms that would be good to take a nap in. They gave me a key to the lactation room, which was quiet, dark, and great for taking a nap. As far as I can tell I was the only person…

I have worked at several companies of varying sizes, and have never seen a lactation room. They're certainly not required by law. I can also say the only place that would have been amenable to workers taking naps was an academic lab that I worked in during a couple years following my time at school. Have you worked in the private sector much? "I wouldn't even consider a job that wouldn't let me nap" is not a realisti…

> They're certainly not required by law.

Wikipedia says lactation rooms have been required by US federal law since 2010:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactation_room#Purpose

> Have you worked in the private sector much?

Not since college. You make a good point here.

I'll keep in mind that this won't be possible everywhere. So far no boss I've had cared that I took naps as long as I put my time in and was productive. I have never counted naps as work, just a break. Asking was not a career ending move in my experience so far, so I know what to do when interviewing. So far I have argued that taking a nap makes me more productive, with good results.

Additionally, when I worked at a federal government lab, I'd regularly take a nap in the library during my lunch hour right after eating. I can't see how any manager could argue against that. I've read of people in private companies doing the same in their cars.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#537
People taking drugs to be more productive at the keyboard. Now that’s not exactly the scene from the movie where the hero wins the girl. Don’t worry though, just remember - you’ve been instructed - that everything is getting better.

As you are.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#538

I worked in a very toxic post-series-A tech startup trying to get acquired. We where all expected to work 8am-10pm and the CEO would always tell us that if we wanted to move up in the company we needed to work weekends as well. Just a 15 minute break would get you a lecture on work ethic from one of the upper-management who really micromanaged engineers. After about a year there I learned about half my team was takin…

Serious question but why would ANY engineer stay in such a company ? There is such a high demand in the bay area for skilled engineers that there is absolutely no reason to stay into any of those startups that treat you like codemonkey. I would leave the first day I have an "ethical" remark after taking a 15` break

It was almost exclusively new grads

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#539
I am a software developer and someone running their own project. I am a recovering stimulant addict, and a recovered cannabis addict.

And by stimulants, I mean caffeine in it's various forms. In the beginning when I was under 20, it started with coding through the weekends with the power of Pepsi. I used to vomit this black goo out of my body after quickly guzzling down a 1.5l bottle, and I thought it was just ok, the sugar and caffeine rush was worth it so I could code through the night. When I started coding professionally later in my life, when I was 28-29, I would go back to this connection and always drinking strong black tea while coding. Did this for many years and though of nothing wrong in it. At some point I started to gravitate towards green tea and mate. Yerba mate became my favorite stimulant for a long time.

I thought the caffeine gave me a way to get into the zone, to go deep in the code and continue that for hours and hours. What I didn't see in the long run until later, was this habit was eating away my core power, slowly and bit by bit, and giving me trouble sleeping, something that in combination with deep depression led to me to discover cannabis as a cure for those. Couple of years of daily cannabis use by vaporizing, and I thought it was the best thing ever. Now I could be more creative, focus better, and even get sleep. At this point when I was bored with my work, I would vape in the morning sometimes and go to work slightly stoned, thinking I was acing it. I didn't do this very often, but definitely during a period when I was thinking of quitting my job I was many times stoned at work, just trying to cope with it.

But slowly this habit started to have it's toll, I was becoming weak, addicted, I couldn't function without cannabis. I thought it would be easy to quit, but man, the habit and addiction is strong. Took me over 7 years of periodical on and off usage to really decide and see how continous use of cannabis made me make bad decisions, made me think I was creative and able, while I was making silly creative decisions and letting the drug affect my work.

Many times while high I would think my work and designs were really beautiful, but when looking at those sober I would see they were really not something I would make when I was sober. The drug had it's effect on my work, and it was not coming purely out of me, but through the filter of that drug. Cannabis also made me really sensitive to things, not being able to stand my own opionion, I really didn't care in that mood, I just wanted to escape to that bubble and be there.

I managed to get out of that habit and thought pattern with serious inner work. Meditation was the most strongest thing that stayed with me during those years. It helped me during all the ups and lows and I never needed anything external to do it, I could rely it being always with me. I wish somebody had taught me this skill, or told me about it with more persuasion. I always tought I was ADHD and that I couldn't focus on things long enough. Then I learned how to quiet my mind, with meditation. It calmed my mind down. It clears the plate so to speak when done habitually. And it's always with me. It's the best thing that has happened to me. Seriously.

Anyway, I'm still recovering from the stimulant use. While starting to work on my own project and startup thing, I went to coffee because I could go to a nice coffee place and work there without having a workplace, drink one cup of coffee. Later I would combine this with L-teanine to get the perfect combination of stimulation and calming down. Little did I know how addictive coffee was, man that is one strong drug right there. After one year I started getting panic attacks, something completely new to me, just from drinking one cup of strong coffee.

Anyway, long story short, caffeine started to put me really towards the edge and in the long run just drained my energy, I had to quit. Now, finally I have also gotten out of the psychological pattern of combining coding with caffeine, it took serious work but now I see that by being sober I have more focus and sustainable work time, if I am well rested and nutritioned. If the rest, nutrition or exercise is out of place, I have to fix that first, not try to push it with stimulants.

I've also worked with many entheogens and psychedelics during the years, which psilocybine mushrooms, LSD and ayahuasca being the most beneficial for me. I can't stress enough how much especially mushrooms and ayahuasca have helped me to heal myself from chronic depression. But those are again only tools, the inner strength is the one that carries through all of these external tools. In the software development field, I see many people taking LSD and other psychedelics, it's really common place, to get visions, to see how to build things, to heal one self to be able to contribute for making this world a better place. Heavy stimulants like amphetamines are not really talked about, but I feel many are doing that also, many with a prescription drug for their ADHD/ADD perhaps.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#540
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems utterly nuts to me that someone could sleep at work as a reasonable alternative to drinking coffee. Most jobs and workplaces are just not at all set up to sleep during the working day.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not at all set up to sleep during the working day", but I assume you mean that it would be difficult to find a comfortable place to sleep. At a place I worked at previously, I asked if they had any quiet rooms that would be good to take a nap in. They gave me a key to the lactation room, which was quiet, dark, and great for taking a nap. As far as I can tell I was the only person…

In countries like Vietnam it is customary for employees to have their own mat and nap for half an hour under their desks after lunch, even at bank offices. It helps that in these countries people are used to sleeping in crowded conditions, noise and light no issue (and being pretty trim too).
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