Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 549 posts

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#531

Post by Lawtonfogle »

cgopalan wrote: post #517
marknutter wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..

Are you seriously comparing animals killing and eating other animals for food with what we do to animals and birds in slaughterhouses? Have you watched videos of slaughterhouses? Have you seen how fur is plucked off rabbits for angora, and feathers off birds for down jackets? In almost all cases, the skin also comes off and they are not even killed after the act but mercilessly left to die on their own. Almost everyo…

Which shows the same amount of concern that animals give each other when they kill/eat/toy with them.

Maybe humans should do better because we can, but if I am going to go about stopping other humans from committing horrible treatment, why should I then 'make peace' with how other animals behave? But to make this problem worse, look at how some animals mate. If you were to only allow peaceful instances, the species would be extinct in three generations. But maybe that is the good thing to do, because the duty is to the individual and not the species. Perhaps the humane thing to do with the spider is to not kill it, but to stop reproduction so there are no more spiders killing butterflies.

Morality sure is weird.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#532

Post by Lawtonfogle »

chiaro wrote: post #498
marknutter wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..

Spiders lack moral agency.

They do (lack moral agency), but you and I don't (at least we think we don't, but that is a different issue to save for elsewhere). So, while the spider may not be morally wrong for torturing its prey, I am morally wrong for allowing the spider to torture its prey when I am in a position to stop the spider.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#533

Post by Lawtonfogle »

cgopalan wrote: post #528
marknutter wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you watched videos of spiders eating their prey? It's more horrific than what we do in most cases. They paralyze them, wrap them up, let them sit there to contemplate their demise, and then suck the blood out of them while they're incapacitated and conscious. Spiders are but one example of the horrific predator/prey dynamic in nature. And to be clear, I'm just as horrified by our treatment of animals as you are…

Just reiterate what you just said and see how it sounds. If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. I feel at this point you are just trying to defend your previous points, some of which are on very shaky ground.

>If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out.

Which brings us back to the issue of the spider and the butterfly. Do you just make your peace that the butterfly will be tortured to death, or do you intervene, thus indirectly causing the spider to die a torturous death of starvation?

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#534

Post by unprepare »

marknutter wrote: post #530
unprepare wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ride a bike to work. LOL, in a rural location that you suggested to lower rent? Work is likely to be at least a 20 minute commute by car, more than 15 miles each way for sure. ( the US average commute time is 25.4 minutes) Also, biking to and from work would reduce the time you are able to spend on your altruism even further. >How about instead of paying for an internet connection you go to a library or hang out at…

Man, you're right. It's impossible. Oh well.

I didnt say its impossible.

I said its completely unreasonable.

Do you honestly think thats reasonable? For someone to be altruistic they /should/ have to make all those decisions and sacrifices?

If you do, i'd love to hear why you think it should be impossible for a secretary, or a janitor, or an accountant to be altruistic and to work towards altruistic goals. Or for that matter someone living in New york or san francisco. Should those cities be devoid of altruism because they are more expensive?

I don't think you've earnestly considered the implications of your suggestion and that was the point of my responding at all. "helping animals is easy! just quit your job and move across the country" echos exactly the ops sentiments that it takess a herculean effort to effect any change in todays economy. You disputed that by laying out a specific herculean effort and tried to brush it off as a simple life decision.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#535

Post by marknutter »

unprepare wrote: post #534
marknutter wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, you're right. It's impossible. Oh well.

I didnt say its impossible. I said its completely unreasonable. Do you honestly think thats reasonable? For someone to be altruistic they /should/ have to make all those decisions and sacrifices? If you do, i'd love to hear why you think it should be impossible for a secretary, or a janitor, or an accountant to be altruistic and to work towards altruistic goals. Or for that matter someone living in New york or san fr…

> Do you honestly think thats reasonable?

Not only do I think it's completely reasonable, I have done it myself and know others who have done it as well. Come to Minnesota, there's plenty of work, both remote and contract, and your cost of living can be very low depending on where you live. We also have great mass transit, are the most bike friendly city in the country, have the lowest unemployment rate in the country, and the best parks system in the country as well.

> If you do, i'd love to hear why you think it should be impossible for a secretary, or a janitor, or an accountant to be altruistic and to work towards altruistic goals.

Why can't these people work toward these goals in their spare time? Why does it have to be an all-or-nothing proposition? And if it does, why can't you start a non-profit where you can pay yourself a living wage and take donations from others who don't have the time to help but have the money to help. And why not just cut your expenses today, keep your high paying job, and donate your additional money to causes you believe in?

People can be altruistic without being rich or privileged. To suggest otherwise is completely offensive and short-sided. And being rich and privileged doesn't automatically equate to someone being more effective altruists. In fact, it's often the opposite case because their experiences are too isolated and foreign to be relatable to the causes they support (see charity-as-tourism).

But what it comes down to is you not wanting it to be hard to do something. And I'm not saying it isn't hard, because it is. But most things worth doing are hard, and complaining about them doesn't do anybody any good. Instead of complaining and creating long lists on internet forums of all the reasons why something is too hard to do you go and actually test your assumptions.

I don't mean to sound harsh but I can't help but respond to such negativity with anything other than exasperation. I can't motivate you, but I hope you find somebody or something that can because it sounds like you want to make a real difference in this world.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#536

Post by doctorcroc »

cgopalan wrote: post #518
therealdrag0 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you already done or have leads on what kind of work specifically you can do in the animal welfare area?

Yes, I have a general idea. I will be polishing and refining it in the 2nd quarter of this year. As of now, it will mostly be a website that provides info about how to inculcate a cruelty-free lifestyle (hopefully without being too preachy). I want it to gather a much larger scope (maybe games or mobile apps to help people understand) but as of now I want to start somewhere, and that will be a simple static website.

Let me know when its up, and what you end up doing to further the cause. Would love to help if possible.

Speaking of which, one simple way to enact change in your own life is to minimize the use of animal products in daily actions - i.e. going vegan. You may have already done this, but the impact of an individual's decision to abstain from consuming any animal products has a huge effect.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#537

Post by cgopalan »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #533
cgopalan wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reiterate what you just said and see how it sounds. If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. I feel at this point you are just trying to defend your previous points, some of which are on very shaky ground.

>If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. Which brings us back to the issue of the spider and the butterfly. Do you just make your peace that the butterfly will be tortured to death, or do you intervene, thus indirectly causing the spider to die a torturous death of starvation?

The point is we can have everything we currently have without resorting to that torture (killing of cows and pigs in slaughterhouses, de-beaking of chickens). Thats what I am trying to eliminate or abate. Animals preying on other animals is natural, and also something they cannot avoid.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#538

Post by dota_fanatic »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #533
cgopalan wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reiterate what you just said and see how it sounds. If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. I feel at this point you are just trying to defend your previous points, some of which are on very shaky ground.

>If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. Which brings us back to the issue of the spider and the butterfly. Do you just make your peace that the butterfly will be tortured to death, or do you intervene, thus indirectly causing the spider to die a torturous death of starvation?

You intervene. Aware creatures eating each other is just a hack the universe needed (apparently) to get energy flowing into more and more complex, intelligent organisms. We can and will, given time and non-self-destruction, figure out a way to get all our energy from non-living sources (given some definition of the word living). With that kind of power, perhaps we could end warfare in general in our sphere of influence.

Although it is undeniable that there is a vast beauty to the living systems on Earth, that doesn't mean there couldn't be something more beautiful and alive... without so much... digestion.

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#539

Post by sumedh »

ryandrake wrote: post #316
wdmeldon wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that risk has become an absurdly exponential factor of increasing wealth where hard work is at best only additive. Risk should not take the value that you provide and raise it to the power of 10 just because you might have failed.

For whatever reason, society seems to value risk-taking 10x more than it values work. Just look at the replies in this thread. People are actually arguing that founders deserve their megawealth because at some point they risked something, and that employees do not deserve it, regardless of how much they work, because they didn't risk anything (although I would argue that employees #1-4 risk a hell of a lot more than…

> I would argue that employees #1-4 risk a hell of a lot more than most founders

How can it more risky for first four employees?

Re: Ask HN: How happy are you working as a programmer?

#540

Post by marknutter »

cgopalan wrote: post #537
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If everybody looked at atrocities and tries to "make their peace" with them, you can imagine how the world will turn out. Which brings us back to the issue of the spider and the butterfly. Do you just make your peace that the butterfly will be tortured to death, or do you intervene, thus indirectly causing the spider to die a torturous death of starvation?

The point is we can have everything we currently have without resorting to that torture (killing of cows and pigs in slaughterhouses, de-beaking of chickens). Thats what I am trying to eliminate or abate. Animals preying on other animals is natural, and also something they cannot avoid.

I figure these chickens wouldn't be alive if it weren't for us, and if asked, would they choose not to have ever existed in favor of existing and meeting a horrific demise?

Another thing to consider - if we genetically engineered chickens that couldn't feel pain, would it be unethical to debeak them?

Post reply on HN