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Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

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Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#511
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whereas everyone else would call that person [with 5 years experience] a junior engineer I’ve met people with 3 years experience who I’d consider more senior than myself (8 years). Some folks just learn really fast and/or don’t do much else other than work. Not sure time is relevant to your skills or title after about 2-3 years.

It's such an old-fashioned way to look at skills and experience. Tbh there should be real ways to measure all this but there aren't. If you can code by your own without handholding, are you a junior at that point anyways?

If I were hiring for my farm business, I would consider years of experience to have some relevance. Every year brings a new environment (e.g. drought, rainy, etc.) and, with the work being largely seasonal, it takes a whole year for a chance to try again. As each year brings new challenges, having another year of experience does strongly indicate that you faced a new challenge each time.

If I were hiring for my tech business, I agree that it doesn't mean a whole lot. One can experience a multitude of different environments before lunchtime. One can also do the exact same thing over and over. There is no seasonality to hold you back or push you forward.

Ultimately, what one is interested to know in questioning years of experience is how many scenarios someone has run through so that when something similar happens again you can believe, with reasonable confidence, that they will know how to react. This is quite measurable, but it can be hard for someone in tech to keep track of as there isn't a good frame of reference like in farming where you can simply remember each year.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#512

It's not a good job market, but it doesn't seem normal to spend six months applying and only get _one_ interview. It might be worth asking friends or former colleagues, ideally people who actually are involved in recruiting (hiring managers etc) to take a look at your resume and LinkedIn profile and see if there's anything glaringly wrong with them. Is your resume in a weird format, or is it structurally weird/overde…

I haven't looked for jobs in nearly 9 years now. Is a LinkedIn profile essential nowadays? I have dropped all social media and LinkedIn is one of the most invasive. I really dislike how it notifies you for everything

> LinkedIn is one of the most invasive

surprised to read this, I don't find it invasive in the slightest. I've turned off notifications for most things but its the only "social" app I have on my device.

I will say it's gotten a lot more content focussed lately, with everyone and their mom sharing their thoughts on jobs and employment. Personally I just use it as a profile for recruiters to hit and a way for me to talk back to them

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#513

I think regardless of the job market situation, the time-to-hire has become unreasonably long and I'm not optimistic that this will change for the better anytime soon. The trouble with job-hunting these days via web is that the signal-to-noise ratio has decreased dramatically over the years. Being able to apply to hundreds of jobs is a double-edged sword where hiring managers also have to filter through thousands of…

> Being able to apply to hundreds of jobs is a double-edged sword where hiring managers also have to filter through thousands of profiles

This has been true outside of tech as well and has given cover for harmful hiring bias to thrive.

Hiring for common jobs is largely done thru portals and most will diminish/disqualify entire classes of people (first-time, age, inconsequential criminal rec, other hidden criteria) with no regard of the candidates' likely capability.

During the worst of employee shortages, there was no sign that portals loosened their ingrained discrimination; qualified and available hires went unconsidered as before.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> worked in other places ...like what? And where did you get/find your jobs? I found a lot of jobs just by checking out all the big name companies directly (banks, insurances, BRZ, ...) of Austria, via recruiters from LinkedIn, I can also HIGHLY recommend contacting the company "ePunkt", they are supportive, almost pushy and forceful in getting you into in person job interviews. IT rat catcher consulting companies li…

> Kapsch Luckily they are transparent with salaries... 55k EUR annually in Vienna... before pandemic it was low and meantime we've experienced over 20% accumulated inflation. I bet they complain about the "quality of candidates", right? With this package all they can demand is ability to use QWERTZ keyboard and that's probably the skillset they hire.

in Vienna 55k in not a livable wage for someone who has aspirations of having a family. two people making each 55k is fine if you can be reasonably frugal with your life.

most I have seen publicly offered for senior IC is 75k. you can get more through connections or being an extreme outlier.

as far as EU is concerned, best tactic is to find a smaller German town for lower cost of living and join a company there as german industry and IT is spread our fairly evenly all over the place and there are quiet a few smaller university towns with desirable kind of people.

another idea in EU is to move to portugal or croatia or czech republic and contract remotely for western europe from there. language barrier being an obvious but not insurmountable obstacle. if you are US citizen I could imagine you could contract for US from eastern europe without problems as well.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#515
From the other side of the table, we just went through a few months of interviewing (we're devs) and boy were there a bunch of lemons. We were offering 6 figures for a junior/mid in a low cost of living area too, with 100% remote. Only a few even had the slightest idea what they were talking about when asking questions and they were softballs. One guy was even googling the questions we were asking him. We used multiple recruiters from multiple companies.

We ended up having to pick one because, "it's just a junior, they can learn." We suspect the guy was working multiple jobs because he was hard to reach and wouldn't return messages and calls for a day or two, even when we were letting him go. He was hired as full time salary.

From my experience, the tech labor market is really messed up right now, there are a lot of people who shouldn't be in it. I'm not sure how long that will take to correct. You're not really competing with good people, you're competing with a huge glut of bad people with well written and probably highly embellished resumes. I'm not really sure how to stand out in that type of market.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#516

It's not a good job market, but it doesn't seem normal to spend six months applying and only get _one_ interview. It might be worth asking friends or former colleagues, ideally people who actually are involved in recruiting (hiring managers etc) to take a look at your resume and LinkedIn profile and see if there's anything glaringly wrong with them. Is your resume in a weird format, or is it structurally weird/overde…

Have you looked for a job recently?

I don't know about you personally, but people in my social circles and employed think the job market is the same as it was from 2015 to 2020. They have no data point and assume their 2+ year old experience of looking for work is relevant today.

The market is bad.

I was getting calls from recruiters in 2020. I looked and found work (contracts) twice in 2022, the first time was not easy, the second time was very difficult.

2023: I am available, contacts and links to resume, linkedin, etc... in my profile!

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no one calls someone with 5.5 years of experience a junior engineer.

I think the issue is that people sometimes incorrectly assume job titles are standard and used the same across different companies. At some companies titles are more about pay bands. I’ve worked places with a bunch of “senior” engineers, but that was mainly because the company pay bands couldn’t compete with the market for junior engineers so they’d hire them as seniors. It’s bad too because sometimes once an employe…

I took three backward steps since 2016

- dev lead - non tech company responsible for one “team” of two developers and a bunch of contractors on another team

- “Senior Software Engineer” - no reports and I actively refused a promotion to be a team lead. I was already the de facto “cloud architect” over the “application modernization” efforts via no more than influence and reputation.

- mid level “cloud consultant” - full time job working remotely at BigTech.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#518

I was laid off in December, a week after a rallying speech from the CEO declaring all jobs were safe. I was surprised at how difficult it was to get an interview as I have a somewhat unique skillset. But understandable if 50-150 are applying. It took seven months before I found something, by which point I had to bullshit about the gap in employment (left to spin up my consultancy!). Agree with some of the comments he…

> a week after a rallying speech from the CEO declaring all jobs were safe

I strongly wish such things were recorded (eg, in a 1-party jurisdiction) and would be used to file grievances in court against CEO and leadership.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#519
post #335

Reach out to people you've worked with in the past. After having five years of experience, you should have worked with at least a handful of people who need someone to fix another broken website. These could be managers, people on your team, people on OTHER teams, vendors, salespeople you've spoken to, anyone. Ideally, you should ALWAYS keep in contact with people you've worked with, even if it's just emailing them "…

I would be totally weird out if some of my past co-workers suddenly reaches out to me with bullshit smalltalk to ask for a job. Or random people from my past sending me happy birthday ever year. I am probably not social enough to understand that, but that sounds like a lot of work just to stand out as kinda weird.

The job market as a whole and the industry as a whole doesn't give a crap about you. Your ability to extract a decent life out of working in software in the long run depends on the relationships you make. It's rare to actually work on a team that executes well and where you enjoy those people's company. In my 20+ year career it's only happened less than a handful of times for me.

So if any of those people reach out to me looking for connections, I'll absolutely do so because I also expect they'll return the favour when I need it. It's worked out for me before.

You don't have to invite them to your wedding. But having a brief if awkward friendly interaction and then passing on a referral for a posting or letting them know about some opportunity you may have heard of isn't "socializing", it's just a career skill.

We're all in this together. Being able to have a career that doesn't suck depends in large part on networking, not on your coding skills.

Re: Ask HN: Is the market bad, or am I having the worst luck job hunting?

#520

I believe the market really is just bad right now. When I was job searching it probably took me 3 times as long. I noticed that there were hundreds of applicants per role when normally I'd have noticed less than 20 maybe? Even at my current company they told us that hundreds of people were applying. That's how many you have to beat just to get in the door. I think it's caused by a number of factors: (1) Investors are…

Very anecdotally it seems to have picked up in July/August. No major layoffs and at least I’m getting the usual recruiters spam again.
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