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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#511

Post by greedo »

pydry wrote: post #75
syspec wrote: post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

Large companies have a tendency to throw up all sorts of impediments to actually getting shit done. Simple tasks can take 3 weeks because there are 7-9 dependencies throwing sand in the gears. This not only provides plenty of cover for not getting stuff done it also saps the motivation to get it done quickly. Like, if X team sits on your request for a week that prevents Y feature from getting out are you really gonna…

Until just recently, I couldn't increase the disk and filesystem of a server without waiting for weekly approval. And there had never been an instance of someone using lvm breaking anything... Same with adding RAM (these are VMs). If you haven't read Pournelle much, he calls this the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#512

Post by Apocryphon »

jollybean wrote: post #330
wonderwonder wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If OP is considered valuable by the organization and everyone is satisfied by their output then they are providing the value they are being paid for. If they feel they are overpaying OP for for the output he is providing then they would PIP him or at the very least say something. OP though has received promotions so they must feel he is doing a good job.

Yes - it's perfectly fine if OP isn't stressed or not doing a lot - if their 2-hour genius contributions are worth $200K to the company that's perfectly fine. This however, is probably not the case. The common case is that due to lack of proper oversight and bloat, people just coast and do nothing. It's incredibly hard to have 'true oversight' in software, which frankly is 'just fine' if everyone does their jobs prop…

Sounds like the problem is with management not doing their jobs to provide proper oversight. So everyone is derelict in their duties.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#513

Post by khazhoux »

Yes, your bosses have been too incompetent to notice.

Yes, if you only put in 5 hours, you are not delivering at your full potential. You are very unlikely to be delivering "10x Developer" work. I have no idea what your company size is, but I would wager that the top developers at my workplace land 10x as much code as you (and solid, well-tested, and efficient code).

Yes, you are lazy. I don't know what else to call doing the bare minimum. I'm not passing judgement and I'm not angry at you for it. But everything you've described can be summarized as "I'm lazy and I get away with it."

If, on the other hand, you tell us that your manager has explicitly signed off on you working 5-10 hours a week, then would this not be laziness but rather a fantastic job arrangement.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#515

Post by xvector »

koonsolo wrote: post #386
ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

I was once at a job where I didn't do much. One day I did nothing, the next day I fixed a bug in 15 minutes, etc. I got excellent reviews. So I asked myself the question: If I get excellent reviews with this kind of work, what the fuck are those other guys doing??? > about 10%-20% of all employees I highly doubt it. Do you have a 10x developer on your team? That's probably the only person doing any serious work. Does…

It's possible to do a little work that is very high value as opposed to a lot of work that is not valued by management. I've seen this a lot.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#516

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #222
nostrebored wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.

I think many doctors work much more than that (60-80 hours each week) for pretty much their entire careers.

This horrifies me. I want medical professionals, law enforcement, fire departments, basically any essential public service well rested and happy.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#517

Post by GhettoComputers »

khazhoux wrote: post #513

Yes, your bosses have been too incompetent to notice. Yes, if you only put in 5 hours, you are not delivering at your full potential. You are very unlikely to be delivering "10x Developer" work. I have no idea what your company size is, but I would wager that the top developers at my workplace land 10x as much code as you (and solid, well-tested, and efficient code). Yes, you are lazy. I don't know what else to call…

It’s unfair to quantify it as amount of code, it might be excellent but longer programs and complexity isn’t always better for debugging, understanding, and maintenance even if performance is better simpler code that is lazier isn’t always worst.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#518

Post by xvector »

khazhoux wrote: post #513

Yes, your bosses have been too incompetent to notice. Yes, if you only put in 5 hours, you are not delivering at your full potential. You are very unlikely to be delivering "10x Developer" work. I have no idea what your company size is, but I would wager that the top developers at my workplace land 10x as much code as you (and solid, well-tested, and efficient code). Yes, you are lazy. I don't know what else to call…

Eh, I've had multiple managers and all of them have been happy with the bare minimum.

I would not call that lazy. There is literally no reason to work more. Rather, I would call working more "passionate."

Let's normalize not selling your soul to your employer out of some misplaced sense of pride.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#519

Post by pdimitar »

khazhoux wrote: post #513

Yes, your bosses have been too incompetent to notice. Yes, if you only put in 5 hours, you are not delivering at your full potential. You are very unlikely to be delivering "10x Developer" work. I have no idea what your company size is, but I would wager that the top developers at my workplace land 10x as much code as you (and solid, well-tested, and efficient code). Yes, you are lazy. I don't know what else to call…

Since when delivering 10x more code is objectively a better performance?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#520

Post by icedchai »

jollybean wrote: post #344
paxys wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a quantification for the value you are obligated to provide your company written down in your employment contract? If not, on what basis are you throwing around words like "crime" and "fraud"?

It's Fraud when there is payment for services not rendered. The problem arises when there's little ability for oversight, which implies a high degree of trust in the system and the mechanism for verification can't be there. Put another way: If someone pays you $50 to fill their tires up with air, it's Fraud if you don't do it - irrespective of your customer's ability or willingness to verify. If your customer was bus…

Except with modern "agile" practices, management is breathing down your neck every day: daily standups, and every week: status meetings, team huddles, etc. If they can't figure out the guy isn't doing anything... well, it's not his problem.
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