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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#511

Post by chillee »

lossforajob wrote: post #465
rifung wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am). I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they neve…

The Foobar coding challenge seems to work really for Google, for whatever reason.

Go to Google and search "python list comprehension" in a bunch of different tabs. Make sure it's exactly that. If you have an extra 's', or if you do "list comprehension python", it's not gonna work.

If you go through the first 3 levels, then they'll ask you to send in a resume.

Admittedly, I only know results from the perspective of students, but I know several people who were initially rejected that got callbacks after finishing Foobar.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#512

Post by dunpeal »

Trundle wrote: post #494
dunpeal wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Simply untrue. Many early startup employees work intense 12-14 hour days. Are you saying founders work 1,200-1,400 hour days? Early startup employees also risk about the same as founders. Maybe a little less, financially. > Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant fundin…

Founders don't work many more hours per day than early employees at x100 less than early employees. They work many more months/years before earning an income at all. By the time the employees start to get hired, a large part of the risk and work that a founder does to earn their hopeful future fat stacks has already been done. Now, are startup compensation packages a little low and relying on the money making reputat…

> Founders don't work many more hours per day than early employees at x100 less than early employees. They work many more months/years before earning an income at all. > > By the time the employees start to get hired, a large part of the risk and work that a founder does to earn their hopeful future fat stacks has already been done.

What you describe isn't the case for most tech startups I know.

These startups need a lot of highly involved technical work done, and often need to hire a small team early on. They typically get seed money quickly. It's not unusual to see seed money right from the start.

> Now, are startup compensation packages a little low and relying on the money making reputation of past decades? Sure.

The point in this thread is not that it's "a little low".

The numbers quoted is that if you're a good engineer at a top tech company, you can almost guarantee about $2m over 4-5 years. In a startup, you'd make less than half of that in cash, with the only compensation being some stock options, that people are rapidly realizing are worth nothing in most cases.

That's a big difference, especially over many years. And we didn't even mention the large gaps in benefits, healthcare, work-life balance, job stability...

The bottom line is that the startups were so good at squeezing the real value out of their job offers, that now only irrational developers will choose them over bigger already successful companies.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#513

Post by dmode »

lossforajob wrote: post #465
rifung wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am). I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they neve…

FAANGs receive massive volume of applications, so it can be very difficult to receive a call back from a recruiter. I had a Facebook recruiter tell me that their acceptance rate is "way lower than Stanford", which, if you think about it is not that surprising. Anyways, the best way to get a call from Google or Facebooks is to find someone to refer you.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#514

Post by blasdel »

neutrino7 wrote: post #303
nunez wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is in Austin; Amazon is in Dallas

Ok, so Texas is technically in the South... you got me. I suppose I should have clarified: major southeastern cities (Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, D.C., Nashville, Miami)

AWS has several thousand engineers in the Virginia suburbs of DC, with a bunch of local VP-level management

(and that's not including anyone who works on the us-east-1 region)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#515

Post by user5994461 »

Qworg wrote: post #247
sjg007 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true but the logical implication then is why are there not more startups in Europe/Canada where healthcare is "free"..

Other barriers to entry than healthcare - labor laws, cultural issues, venture availability, and more.

None of this, the market is too small. No European country is comparable to the USA and its 300 million customers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#516

Post by addcn »

I've thought about the comp issue for a while and came up with a kernel of an idea for a possible solution. Most companies are going to fail which means that most engineers will see their options go to ~$0. The reason VCs make money regardless of this low success rate is that they have a better Beta due to the many concurrent bets they're taking.

It occurs to me that some kind of Startup PEO could be created to help give engineers a favorable Beta too. Startups would hire the PEO by granting them equity and paying the salaries of their team each month. In exchange the PEO would pool the costs for good healthcare and other benefits. They'd also provide placement services to help engineers in their program switch companies whenever they wanted.

Do damn good work and the shared fund will give you upside. You won't be rewarded for picking the winning horse anymore, but instead the quality of your work over years and across several organizations. I'm not going to pretend I have all the incentive management figured out, but I think there's something in there and an ORG like YC might be able to pull it off.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#517

Post by RestlessMind »

CodeCube wrote: post #109
driverdan wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few YC startups allow remote work and a large percentage are in expensive areas like the bay.

This is such a massive point right here ... there is so much talent, either already in "far flung" parts of the country; or currently in a place like SF, but who long to move "back home" for any number of reasons. Having startups be more remote-friendly by default would be a huge boon for everyone involved.

Ah, but here is the rub. If you want to work remote, who would you rather work for? An employer as established as possible (with less risk of going under) or a startup which might not even be around next year? Being remote, new opportunities might not be easy to come by, especially if the startup folds due to an economic downturn which is affecting other startups as well.

While hiring remote makes sense for startups, working for a startup might not be the best option for remote workers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#519

Post by toephu2 »

_m96l wrote: post #463
toephu2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

> There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). None of the companies in top tier tech can afford to pay substantially less than any of its competitors. That's why they're "top tech". If what you said was true, and FB or Google paid a lot more than say MSFT or AMZN, then all the best senior engineers would eventually…

It's quite a well known fact in the Valley that FB/Google pay much better than MSFT/AMZN...and yes the best (or lets say a lot of them) engineers eventually do leave for FB/Google...AMZN has huge turnover. MSFT on the other hand is more of a rest and vest type of place with nice work life balance so not as many people are leaving.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#520

Post by user5994461 »

neutrino7 wrote: post #267
eanzenberg wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a somewhat similar boat and have seen DS positions at FAANG not pay as well as SWE. Why is that?

I’m not sure. At average companies, I think SWEs and data scientists make about the same. But the top companies have a much larger software engineering population to choose from, so they can afford to be picky, and the pay correspondingly reflects that. There’s about 20x as many software engineers as there are data scientists in the world. I think this is changing though, and I think “data scientist” will soon be spl…

Or you negotiated poorly for your first and second jobs. Do better next time. There is a wide variance both within and across companies.
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