Please indulge my curiosity. This might be wildly unrelated but... how attractive are you, physically? Are you thin? Are you taller than most people in your peer group? Do you more or less resemble the "dominant" demographic where you live? That is, the same gender presentation, ethnicity, etc. as most of your government and business leaders. Are you a citizen of the country where you live?
Would love to hear your hypothesis, care to share it?
Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
501–510 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#502Since, however, moving into the embedded systems space, I rarely see this kind of scenario, anymore. I see it as the effect of the commoditization of IT skills, coupled with the mundaneness of the kinds of software produced in typical IT shops. It's a sign of maturity (which to me had the stench of death).
I'm grateful to now (10 years+) working with deeper-skilled engineers, and getting to work on truly new products and technologies.
My advice is to embrace the discomfort you're feeling about yourself -- change is definitely indicated. Seize the day.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#503Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#504Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am with you on most of your points, but definitely not on the "normal and mostly acceptable". The truth of our domain is that you can get great work done in 3-4 hours a day (I am referring to deep work here, not meetings). In fact, most of us become much less productive beyond that. The remaining hours can/should be spent on useful meetings, reading, learning new things, chatting to people about things, etc. Coasti…
> I am with you on most of your points, but definitely not on the "normal and mostly acceptable". The "normal" part is easy to disprove: If everyone was doing near zero work and lying their way through standup about it, nothing would ever get done. That may be normal in certain zombie organizations, but those organizations can't last forever without people doing actual work. Somebody is doing the work, even if the OP…
I've never had this issue with the projects I've managed.
Create a doc/Jira for the project, including timelines and tasks. Allocate tasks to all teammates. Daily/weekly go through those tasks, updating progress. If timelines are being held back by someone, I'm going to make management aware because I'm not taking the fall. If they're not then I don't care.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#505Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…
The OP wasn't asking about working harder. They specifically said that they BS their way through standups to deceive their peers and manager into thinking that they're working, while often doing zero work at all: > There are literally days in which the only time I spend on my job is the few minutes it takes to attend the morning stand-up. Then I successfully bullshit my way through our next stand-up to hide my lack o…
Had a gig like this, the codebase was so shit it took days to do simple stuff, it was highly domain specific logic I cared nothing about and I was going to leave ASAP.
Most of the time l bulshited my way through turns out a lot of the features got scrapped because they weren't necessary in the first place (ie. there was another way to do it for eg. or client didn't really need it), requirements got updated that would have made any progress I did worthless,etc. There were two crunch weeks before releases where I did some OT to help push stuff out the door (wasn't even my backlog) other than that yeah - did two months of work in 6 months I was there.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#506* The more internal hurdles in place to prevent a developer from solving a programming problem the less of a hurry that developer will be in to solve such problem. Hurdles may describe additional tools, build steps, security provisions, dependencies, processes, manual steps, and so forth.
* Some developers actually know what they are doing. Sometimes they appear to be 10x developers. They don't work necessarily harder, but just get things done. Getting more done in a shorter period of time leaves of idle time comparative to their peers.
* Lack of productivity is typically reinforced by the environment despite all their claims and agile methodologies. For example consider how many hours a day you are in meetings not writing code.
* Most lost productivity appears to be a result of poor choices of technology and/or training misalignments. It appears that Java turns any software authoring process into slow moving tar, for example. On the other side some developers won't even attempt to write code unless they have a favorite framework and a bazillion tools/dependencies. The excess extraneous bullshit chokes delivery into a coma.
* Most bad technology decisions appear to be deliberate around people concerns. Nobody wants to invest in dedicated formal training, so instead employers deliberately make choices around lowing hiring costs opposed to lowering delivery costs. Why should they invest in training when the average developer will stick around for less than 2 years? So instead seniors get paid more to do the same beginner work as everybody else, but likely get it done in a fraction of the time with nothing else to do.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#5071. Mental health is important. Doing a grind 8-9h a day is, let's face it, no more than a 10-year affair for probably 95% of all folks out there (workaholics do exist and their lives usually end very ugly and sad; don't be a workaholic). Start working at 20 and when you hit 30 you likely can no longer do the grind. Let's not kid ourselves. We all know it but we don't talk about it because that's somehow going to tarnish our perfect reputation or whatever.
2. Most programming jobs do NOT pay that well. HN is a special bubble and I hope the more privileged programmers around here are aware of their non-standard status -- but there's a LOT of work, both creative and laborious, that is being done out there by Eastern European / Asian / South American folks for some meager 4000 EUR a month. And I can bet my neck they work much harder than many other SV-based engineers. So the conclusion is: work according to the money you receive. The median EU programming wage is in fact not that good. Let your efforts reflect that.
3. Expectations from business people tend to grow to infinity. Another thing we should not lie ourselves about is that if you put more work regularly then at one point this becomes the baseline expectation and when you finally get weary and normalize your workload, what happens then? They start to grumble about your "underwhelming performance", of course. You know what? F_ck them. Give them some base amount they are relatively happy with, hustle every now and then to show them that you can get stuff done when sh_t hits the fan and that they can rely on you, then quickly dial back your efforts to the previous baseline. Then chill. Rinse and repeat.
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I guess what I am trying to say is: don't take work very seriously because it's means to an end. I am 41 and I am really good at what I do but I can't bring myself to care enough to work as hard as I did even some mere 5 years ago. Most people are not that fortunate so as to work with a smile on their face. That's a fact.
And it's not worth it. My wife had to literally drag me to bed several times this year and this really has put things into perspective for me. With the Covid situation I have also grown to appreciate enjoying things while I have them because now, even with three vaccinations, I still have to wear a mask literally everywhere except on the street. And I have no guarantee that if I go take a vacation with my girl in another country, we wouldn't have to self-isolate for 10 days, why? Because f_ck you that's why, who cares that you got all the vaccines right? But that's a different topic. My point was: enjoy things in life while they last. Covid has clearly shown that even the small things we have can be taken away by a central authority even if we're good citizens.
As my mother still loves to say (she recently turned 69): work was here thousands of years ago and will be there long after you die. You have to stop stressing about work and career and future and try to enjoy life. I wish I could listen to this advice but I am working on it literally every day and I am gradually getting there.
I know some here will classify me as toxic or a lazy guy but meh. I always put some work into networking so I know I have where to land if things with my current employer turn sour. I have lost my ability to be truly loyal in a business setting. 99% of the employers out there will stab you in the back the minute it suits them financially so don't go ruining your health for them.
In short: yes, you likely are lying about how much work you are doing, especially in a remote work setup. And? You shouldn't care. You are doing your part of the bargain well enough.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#508Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable. It's not unusual for most of my "productive" (as in typing actual code) time to be concentrated in a few particular days in a month. The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. It's mostly spent solving problems, a…
> Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable... The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. All true statements, but that's not what we're talking about. OP recognizes that he works 5-10 hours a week, and effectively blows the rest of the day off. Reminds me…
The point I'm making is that some people in our profession think they are slacking when they're not, for the reasons I described. OP's description doesn't convince me that they necessarily are. In particular the comment at the end about having spent the years prior to the pandemic "pretending" to themselves that they were working hard sounds to me like somebody who's never really understood their own mental processes and has encountered a different perspective by doing the job in a different environment. I might be wrong, but that sounds more likely to me than that they have been getting away with minimal contributions throughout what they describe as a 20 year career. Your report didn't get away with it - the evidence is always there in the commit history, and the 2-5 year job length OP mentions is, contrary to their assessment, plenty of time to judge a developer's productivity.
Another hint is the fact that this person is seriously proposing the idea that everybody else is slacking off and lying too. This indicates that they don't think their actual output is less than other developers'.
As I say, I may be wrong. I don't know this developer - these are just some thoughts based on what they've posted. Unlike some here I'm not assuming I know the truth.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#509I think where a performance evaluation issue starts popping up is long focused work where you don't quite know how much effort it really takes to produce. Some things take a lot of investigation time and show little code, some things produce a lot of code and actually wasn't that much work. If your manager has a lot of reports, they have less time to keep track about your individual productivity.
It has probably effected your career, you could've gotten promoted faster, but did not.
Also people who can communicate, are personable and you can just give a task and they will figure it out with little fuss are also low maintenance employees, which is a value of it's own.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#510I work for a Fortune 100 company. Everyone reading this knows the company.
In my entire time at the company (>5 years, I think), I've written maybe 30k lines of code.
I'm terrible at responding to e-mail. Whatever you think this means, I'm worse than that.
I skip meetings all the time. Sometimes I just don't dial in. Sometimes I say I have a conflict, sometimes it's true. I probably attend a total of 4 hours of meetings in any given week.
Not too long ago, I had 3-4 weeks in a row where all I did was attend those few meetings.
I have ADHD. I dick around a lot. I spend hours and hours reading/watching random stuff. 60% tech stuff, 40% random Youtube rabbit holes. Very little of it is applicable to my work.
I take naps and often sleep in. Some days I don't show up for work at all.
For the most part, what I do is review people's stuff and tell them why it won't work as well as they hope. Occasionally, I'll tell them what to do instead but with a lot of hand-waving. I believe it's called "being an architect".
However:
I'm at the highest individual contributor level the company has. It's a tech company, btw.
I get consistently stellar reviews. My boss says she hears great things about me all the time, so "I shouldn't not even bother asking around" when we do 360 reviews.
I've gotten off-schedule, totally unexpected stock grants as thanks for "all my good work".
I make $15k/year more than any of my peers and $100k+ more than some of them. Some of that is due to regional differences (I'm in the Bay area), but it's all the US.
This year, we weren't even supposed to get bonuses. 2020 had been a shit year. The board decided to give us bonuses anyway, but "no one would get their full bonus". I got 120%.
If I ask if I can attend a conference, I've never gotten a "no". My boss even suggested a few more I should attend.
None of this would make any sense, were it not for those (on average!) 2-5 hours a week of good, actually productive time I have. The ADHD means I can't do it on command, but when it hits me, it's apparently gold.