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Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#502
I was a graduate student living off a stipend and working for the university teaching math and CS courses. It wasn't enough money, especially with my wife's medical bills, so I got desperate and...taught for ITT Tech.

If you've never had the displeasure of being a student or teacher at ITT Tech, I'd describe it as a cross between community college and vocational school but where everyone is pretending it's a 4-year college. It felt like a place where dreams go to die, and no where did I see that more in the way they set me up to teach classes.

Now, first I should say I have a lot of sympathy for my students there. They were generally folks who honestly wanted to make better lives for themselves and got duped by ITT Tech into thinking it was a place where they could do that. Those students are now stuck with a lot of crappy debt they can't easily get out of and also didn't learn much, because as I learned from teaching there, the goal was not really to teach anyone anything.

I taught two classes: software engineering principles and Linux system administration. I had not special qualifications to teach either of those classes, but they needed someone to teach them, I had an MS in CS, and I had some idea of what to do. The SE class consisted of two students and we'd meet for 4 hours every Saturday for 3 months. We'd sit together and read the textbook, then do some problem sets out of the textbook ("how would you design this system or organize this work?"). Nothing truly objectionable, just the same shit the passes for "education" in most school. I think I gave both of the students As at the end of the semester.

The Linux system administration class was another story. I had three students, although one showed up maybe 3 times all semester, and they had all in theory already taken a class teaching them Linux/Unix basics, but as became immediately apparent none of them had actually used Linux before, just read about it in a book. So began our awful semester of them pretending to learn and me increasingly transitioning from teaching to pretending to teach.

They started out needing to install Linux on their laptops. This was around 2010, so not quite as easy as today but already very easy (the worst case scenario was you failed to get hardware acceleration for graphics or something like that, not non-functional input devices). Yet somehow every week for the first month we had to reinstall Linux. I don't know what was happening in the week between classes, but somehow Linux disappeared from their computers and we had to go through it all over again. This obviously put us way behind.

Once we got Linux running on their computers we started to try to do some basic system admin stuff (there was a syllabus telling me what stuff they should be able to do by the end). I don't think we ever really made it past creating users and installing packages (is installing packages even still sys admin work?). They constantly got stuck on basic things, forgetting how to `ls` and `cd`. By the end of the semester I think they still couldn't reliably `sudo` on the first try.

I knew this was bad and had been talking to my supervisor about it, but he kept telling me it was fine just do my best and work with them where they were. When the end of the semester came I didn't know what to do about grades because they had tried but were just unprepared for the class. At university I would have failed them, but ITT Tech insisted I give them Cs. I was pretty unhappy about that whole situation but what could we do.

When they offered me classes for the next semester I declined. I didn't want to be part of a system that was all about pretending to teach people things while also charging them a bunch of money. But for one terrible semester I was complicit to a system of exploiting desperate folks (some of my students had been in prison and were trying to get their lives back together and giving up a lot to pay for classes to be there).

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#503

Circumvented browser features to force autoplay on videos with high volume on our websites. While not a morally bankrupt thing to do especially compared to some of the other examples, we all felt dirty doing it.

Let ye who hasn't exploited a web browser for commercial gain cast the first stone.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#504
post #92

(I didn't go through with this, but considered) While I was a student I worked for a small shop that sold online services. I was something between an intern and a junior developer/security guy. The boss (non technical) privately asked me one day to do some research about automating some data entry processes, basically reading from excel files, some databases, formatting and putting it all in another database. I found…

Should've gone through with it but shared the result with the data-entry people instead of the boss!

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#505

I helped build Grindr, which of course I don't think was unethical. But I've been surprised by some people's reaction to it. It generally comes up in some conversation where someone asks "what have you worked on that I might have heard of?" Occasionally they follow up with (paraphrasing) "how do you sleep at night?"

Well they did leak their users' HIV status[0]. That's pretty unethical IMO.

[0] https://www.vox.com/2018/4/2/17189078/grindr-hiv-status-data...

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#506
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CNN just put this on their front page. Did they ask you for comment? https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/07/media/jared-kushner-new-yor...

They did not.

Not questioning your story a bit, I'm sure it's true. But shouldn't we all be a little concerned that CNN is posting a story as fact without verification or even talking to the person making the claims? The article even implies heavily that they've talked to you.

That scares me.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#507

I created software that was used by call center agents to bid on “bathroom” break time slots and kept track of who was on break and actively punished those who didn’t follow the rules. It rewarded those that had higher performance and who took less breaks with higher priority. If an agent didn’t come back from their break a security guard would automatically be dispatched to find them. For the same company I also mad…

First i thought that this is scary but I've had many friends who told me that they they play games all day at their office and once boss called them in their cabin and they expected to be laid off but were given a small raise instead. "I take lots of cigarette and bathroom breaks to fix my makeup/hair and Snapchat my friends. I can't see myself working hard. I am not a sheep". Those are the exact words. This is a sce…

Not sure why you're acting like that's a bad thing. The idea we should live to work 40+ hour weeks isn't a good thing.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#508
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to ask, why did you choose to take the contract? Financial pressures? Or did you not feel that such a system is morally reprehensible? Personally while I'm opposed to programmer certification, systems like these certainly make me wish such a thing existed.

I was just starting out in my career and was more pre-occupied with the task at hand to have enough mental headspace to contemplate the full picture of what was happening. The system itself was designed by traditional software means: trial and error, trying to see what worked and didn’t, usually trying to maximize some KPI at the company. There was also the thought that punishment and reward should be applied fairly…

It's really depressing how capitalism has taken automation and data and bastardized it into a toxic weapon.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#509
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be someone who can find a moral reason that such systems need to exist. Engineers build weapons, after all.

But see, I can understand weapons building. The motivation is protective towards one's society, and that is the intended result, even if that might not be the actual case. Whereas the intention of building an oppressive system such as the one described above is, what, selfishness? Laziness? Programmers, because of the high-demand nature of our role, do not tend to be subject to the usual financial pressures that othe…

It enables cooperation. Human nature is such that it's hard to keep working hard when others slack, you feel taken advantage of and a fool. This way, you know everyone's doing their part.

It creates jobs. A lot of people don't have the self-control to keep from taking longer and longer breaks, either costing the company money or getting fired. Some jobs pay more to hire people that do have this self-control, but there are only so many of those people. This creates a business model that works when supplied only with the lazier employees who are left.

Another system like this is the timeclock. It's a tyrant and getting out of bed on time every morning is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but there's just no way to run a factory without it.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#510
I worked on dating websites. The codebase was awful but more importantly, 99.9% of female profiles were fake, poor guys were trying to get a date when in fact they were chatting with some other guy in Africa... It was really depressing doing a job that wasn't adding any value to the world and being part of a parasite economy. I had to this for financial reasons but left as soon as I could.
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