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Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#51
post #36

Maybe this is crazy but you could listen to them, treat their comments as valid, give a clear indication that you understand what they are saying, and then seriously consider their concerns? Too often I see people shut down and go into a kind of "you can't tell me what to do" coma and lash out. That doesn't solve anything.

I think you're assuming a lot about what's going on on the receiving end of those comments. You're assuming that what you suggest is even an option for them, and that the people who don't devote hours (if not days) per week to doing what you suggest are avoiding it out of selfishness or ignorance or laziness. You may also be vastly overestimating the signal to noise ratio of that input. It's true that some people are just crappy maintainers, but there's rarely enough information to make that determination.

Ultimately, most of these maintainers are volunteers doing what they're doing in their spare time out of love for their craft, and they have no social or professional obligation to let other people dictate the direction of their project. The nice thing about open source is that if there is a critical mass of users who are unsatisfied with the state of the world, they can fork it and take it in the direction that they want. Yes, "just fork it" is often used as a cliched excuse for shutting down conflicting viewpoints, but it's such an effective excuse because it's also a true statement.

What if there isn't a critical mass? What if there's an important project which has received and ignored perfectly reasonable user requests, or even patches that "just have to be merged", but there's no critical mass for forking? Sadly, that's how pretty much everything else in the world works as well. Like democracy and capitalism, it's the worst system in the world except for every other one. Everybody has a laundry list of complaints about their most-used software, and has thought to themselves, "if only they would change this one thing", "if only they would just merge my patch", "if only they would listen to me", then everything would be great. What the "if only's" of the world don't see is that for every popular project, there are dozens if not hundreds or thousands or millions of people who each have their own "if only" which in many cases are contradictory if not outright wrong. If someone just doesn't have time to work on their passion project and drink from that firehose at the same time, I do not judge them for choosing to focus on their own code.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#52
post #37
post #6

> Lately a number of open source projects has faced tremendous pressure from people coming from Twitter and Reddit to have issues resolved a certain way. Can you point to a specific example? the only things I have seen is some brigading and cabal to pressure a project owner to remove a contributor from a project, but it was akin to a lynch mob, not related with programming in any way.

The recent witch hunt against projects that don't have Code of Conducts. 'meh' did a masterful job with those: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/945

If 'meh' had used a real name they probably would have attacked him pretty early in that conversation - going after his job or his reputation in other areas.

The shield of a pseudonym allowed him to stand strong and forced his opponents to engage with him, resulting in this masterful display of defeating an SJW mob. This is a lesson to us all, and a reminder of what is no longer possible with "real name" policies.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#53
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent witch hunt against projects that don't have Code of Conducts. 'meh' did a masterful job with those: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/945

My god those comments are a shitshow

I'm at a loss for words. I don't know whether to be angry that there's discrimination or the person playing the victim card and demanding change on a github out of all places. When the hell did github issues tracker turn into an all out debate forum?

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#54
post #46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you measure that quality? Based on amount of contributions? Based on +1's they've received on comments?

Based on lines changed, merge requests accepted/rejected, etc etc. You know, GitHub developers are quite smart. They could just write their own weighting algorithm if they wanted to. :-)

Those are absolutely awful metrics to use when measuring a developer's ability and talent, or the quality of this developer's contributions. They are also extremely easy to game, too.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#55
I have always felt that the "uncivil" parts are typically coming from people who have to depend on others to accomplish what they want. There has to be a certain amount of anxiety that comes from being asked to do something that you may not know how to do yourself. e.g. Someone who is not a developer themselves.

On the other hand, if you notice alot of developers complaining, my first thought would be that the code may not be modular enough that the developer feels they can comfortably make changes themselves without knowing what it will do to the overall code base.

Wherever there is reasonable dissent, it seems it would be a perfect opportunity to reorganize that part of the code so that many different opinions can be happy about the end result.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#56
post #50
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh is a genius in handling those people, you do have to admit that.

I don't know that I would go that far. He was very abrasive, whereas his core message could've been plenty to stop the nonsense he always added a little bit of aggression to keep the drama going. If he was a genius, you probably wouldn't ever have known the issue existed. At least it seems that way to me.

But the people who started the attacks researched his profiles and publicized the entire thing. Their entire goal was public ridicule and getting him denounced.

If this group of thugs is good at anything, it's getting the word out and the twitter mobs mobilized.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#57
post #51
post #36

Maybe this is crazy but you could listen to them, treat their comments as valid, give a clear indication that you understand what they are saying, and then seriously consider their concerns? Too often I see people shut down and go into a kind of "you can't tell me what to do" coma and lash out. That doesn't solve anything.

I think you're assuming a lot about what's going on on the receiving end of those comments. You're assuming that what you suggest is even an option for them, and that the people who don't devote hours (if not days) per week to doing what you suggest are avoiding it out of selfishness or ignorance or laziness. You may also be vastly overestimating the signal to noise ratio of that input. It's true that some people are…

Yeah I'm not really 100% in agreement with my own comment to be honest, it ignores the very real existance of malicious trolls for one, but it just annoyed me that every single comment was assuming a standpoint of "assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong".

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#58
You (or they, depending on how you consider things) have a simple tool to solve the problem: let them fork and do what they want.

It sounds like I'm trivializing the issue but I"m not (see below). Take a kindly approach: "Clearly I have a disagreement as to the right way to proceed so let's stop arguing and both go down our respective paths." Don't worry about the obnoxious folks: be kind and take them at their word. If they pick up the ball, perhaps they will be proven right and you'll switch, perhaps they'll be proven wrong and that experiment won't have hurt your project, or perhaps they'll be proven trolls (by not picking up the ball), in which case you can saefly ignore them.

And when I say this is a simple tool: it took me months to arrange the first "legitimate" (in the sense that it was accepted as a mainstream activiy) open source fork, which was GCC back in 1997. Until then forking a project while done (often companies would hack something unsupportable into, say, gdb), was considered grossly dangerous. It took literally months of discussion to split egcs off from mainline gcc (and to become, in fact, mainline gcc). I had to write a really long, careful message (https://gcc.gnu.org/news/announcement.html) to justify it. Nowadays you can fork away with abandon. Take advantage of it.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#59
post #39
post #36

Maybe this is crazy but you could listen to them, treat their comments as valid, give a clear indication that you understand what they are saying, and then seriously consider their concerns? Too often I see people shut down and go into a kind of "you can't tell me what to do" coma and lash out. That doesn't solve anything.

What if their comments are not "valid"? What if their agenda is stirring up shit, not the health of your project at all? To take an extreme but existing example (urbit), what if they want your project to die because they (think) they don't like you , a person working on the project?

A bad thing to do is to start thinking such things to begin with. Just because somebody expresses an idea that you personally disagree with it does not mean that they are "trolling", it does not mean that the idea is "invalid", it does not mean that they're trying to "stir up shit", and it does not mean that they're trying to "kill" an open source project.

Always respond to their concerns with professionalism, courtesy, and tact.

The absolute worst thing to do is to start censoring them. I've seen this happen with a number of GitHub projects in the past. People occasionally come along with ideas that some, or sometimes even just one, of the core contributors does not agree with. Even when the newcomers are participating in good faith, I've seen intolerant GitHub project leaders start deleting perfectly good comments, closing perfectly valid issues, rejecting perfectly good pull requests, deleting perfectly good wiki content, and otherwise engaging in behavior that is much more harmful than anything the newcomer could managed to have engaged in.

When I see that happening to new contributors, especially when it's a small project involved, then I know it's time to move on from that project, both as a user and contributor. I refuse to be associated with such nonsense.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with social media pressure on your GitHub project?

#60
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gitlab is an excellent self-hostable alternative to github. https://about.gitlab.com/

Maybe relevant: We're bringing GitLab to FreeBSD. :-) Check the ruby@ list for current status, things left to do, etc. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ruby/2015-July/t...

Thanks for that effort! Please let us know if we can help in any way.
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