Ask HN: The rising “Hackathon Hackers” culture

From a 1976 musical, for example: "Don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor." (Peter Stone)

I am one of these "older engineers" as you describe. Mostly I am well-respected by anyone who works with me because I tend to intimidate, but also be very helpful and mentor people. I do feel a lot of disrespect from younger people I meet in the industry. I actually look extremely young for my age, but I can hardly pass as a 22-year old.

Anyway, I'll start by discussing your generation stereotypically. I've been hiring people from universities for a few decades now and I am increasingly disappointed as time passes. Maybe I am just becoming a grouchy aging developer, my patience is wearing thin, or perhaps what I see is just reality. When I hire someone, especially out of school, I never expect them to know much about XYZ technology we use, ABC framework, or anything else I am using at the time. Simply, I look for smart people who I think my team can get along with in the workplace, are at least a tiny bit motivated to work, and are honest in every sense of the word. I learned the hard way it's better to hire someone who is a good, honest, hard worker than someone full of great ideas that can't execute or pisses everyone off each day. Unfortunately, I find myself disgusted by the type people who show up for interview and that I have to deal with from other companies. I do not ask for much.

Perhaps in the words of William S Burroughs, a few "words of advice for young people" are needed:

Do not turn on your cell phone during an interview, show up on time, do some basic research about us before you arrive, understand at least bullet item we wrote on the job description, etc. I'm not your dad and most definitely not your bro. Do not show up to the interview in your free give-away Angular.js t-shirt you got. That technology or framework you are named dropping and then trying to use to feign knowledge about? Well, you aren't fooling me, I probably used it or read about it, tried it, and realized that my instinct that it was garbage was true. I use more new technologies than you do because I am doing actual work as I have done for decades. Just because I am older than you doesn't mean I don't understand Ruby. Just because I don't seem impressed by your node.js github project doesn't mean I don't get it. More likely I am not impressed because your code is terrible and I am shocked that it took you so many weeks and commits to do what you would be expected to finish in 1 day at our office.

Remember that class where you decided the professor was as a-hole and that it was just too early in the morning to go to anyway? Was it called data structures 101? Well, it's going to bite you one day when you interview with me and you can't tell me when you would use a hash table and when you would use a list. Remember when you interviewed with me and you didn't get the job which you thought it was because I just didn't like JavaScript? Well, you are wrong, you did not get the job because you could not explain basics in JavaScript, your favorite language. Go ahead and criticize us for using Foo technology, because even though it's rock solid stable, works great in real-world production, and is making us millions, we were waiting for you to tell us to rip it out and replace it with Bar, which your buddy just put up on Github yesterday. But that's OK, because we're a lame company, and everything is our fault. We just need you to turn the ship around, so by all means, act like an idiot because there is no way we can live without your genius.

Do you want to impress me? Tell me what you know. Explain to me what will make you happy and motivated you. When you do not know something, admit it instead of trying to bs me. I hear enough bs from sales guys, marketing people, and VPs of the department of nothing to recognize bs before it leaves your lips. When you do not know something, do not give up. Tell me how you would do it differently or how you would go about finding the solution. If I give you hints or part of the solution, use it or even ask me for another hint. I am trying to help you because I am tired of interviewing people just like you. I want to hire you so I can get back to coding. I have already seen ten of you today, and I am currently considering offering a 5 million bounty for the next person who can sit in that chair and have even 20% of what we need to do the job.

You can be relaxed, just not too much. Most developers who have been at it for awhile really need to stay relaxed and do not take everything too seriously. You can have fun with us and talk to us. That does not give you a license to fool around, act unprofessional, or like an idiot. This is a job, and it takes very little else but hard work like any other job. Things are done by doing, not talking. People worth impressing are impressed by actions, not words.

/rant

Full disclosure - I've only gone to hackathons to accompany co-workers to provide advice and to network, I don't have any desire to actually participate.

Anyway, my general view on hackathons are they are a waste of time. If you want to learn something, learn by doing a real task, not a contrived one for a hackathon. If you are taking a more practical idea into a hackathon, sit on it, use that time to think it through, and build it on your own time, rather than in a noisy room. I get that people want to network, that they need motivated, and that constraints/goals/focus can inspire them, but I really feel that in software development, that's just people looking for an excuse. If you want to build something, build it. If you want a constraint, write it on a piece of paper yourself and follow it. If you lack the creativity to make something without the help of a hackathon, you are probably a lost cause anyway.

You can experiment with that new technology yourself. You don't need the group to tell you what you are doing is right or cool. The group is often wrong or misguided. History is full of bad group think. The way I see it is that if you are really a computer scientist, look at your computer and the world around you for a few minutes. You should easily see thousands of problems that need to be solved or can be solved better. It doesn't matter if it is polishing an old tech or a crazy new idea that throws out everything we learned before. I have more problems to solve than I can handle in a lifetime and I cannot imagine wasting that time at a hackathon in that kind of ridiculous environment.

You mentioned that there is definitely a bro/framework/money culture and I agree. Look at all the "schwag" and advertisements at most bigger hackathons. People want you to buy things and to use their stuff. Putting time constraints on people doesn't make them automatically more creative, often it just forces them into using whatever framework because of the nature of the hackathon so they can get something complete. This is constraining creativity usually, not encouraging it. This is not some romatic story about a lab deep in the bowles of MIT where the next great clean energy will save the universe, it is a gathering of guys trying to out muscle each other's egos. The bros will dominate because of this and will always be there in some form.

Check the experience level. Notice that a lot of great programmers don't go to these events. Why? They are working and don't really care, and nor should they. If you want to have some fun with people, start asking your colleagues and friends why they are going to XYZ events, hackathon, whatever. Strangely enough, most people I have asked can't explain and give reasons like free pizza, chance to win an ipad, or to hear a presentation about ABC technology. Is it worth losing a day of work or the weekend for that? Can you not read things in more depth at home or even just watch the video later? What is the point?

The point is perhaps to just participate in more group activities and feel part of something. There are similar reasons why people go to religious services, join fraternities and clubs, and post on message boards. People like meeting like-minded people. When a dominant sub-group emerges within a group, it becomes the group and usually drives out the fringes. I remember older and smaller versions of hackathons and meetups at people's houses, garages, etc. in decades past. It was really the same thing where bad actors eventually dominated, and perhaps for awhile there was a period where it felt fun, then stopped. Very little has changed, only scale and the way the same personality types manifest themselves in the context of the time.

Don't get discouraged by these people. They are everywhere, in every sub-culture. If they want to call themselves stupid terms like "hackers" instead of software developers, so be it. If companies want to be idiots and put up job ads calling for "rockstar programmers," just ignore them and take it as early notice that working there would probably suck. If someone wants to shove their glued frameworks in your face and claim they are awesome, just point out exactly what they have done and how simple, or better yet, just do something better yourself. You be the example, and you be the good guy.

But yes, you are right, I hate these people and I too feel they are unethical with stupid ideas that advance nothing. I think this shameful bubble of valuations of companies that don't really produce anything including actual revenue based on something real (ads don't count, sorry, if advertising would die and take 98% of the internet with it, so be it) need to die a quick death.