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Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Facebook is granting you additional rights on top of the BSD license. In the worst case, where you do something that causes the patent rights to be revoked, you're still left with the same rights you have under the BSD license. This is unambiguously safer to use than if they had released it under a vanilla BSD license. As for why Facebook did this, they're most likely trying to give away additional rights while stil…

This is actually well settled law. I'm not sure it is, and I'd argue the situation is unclear. I'd be keen to see any examples though – it would be awesome if there was something to fall back on. All I can find is evidence that it would be at best very risky to rely on an implied patent grant. For example, it's considered unclear enough that the ClearBSD license was explicitly created to clarify that it doesn't offer…

""I'm not sure it is, and I'd argue the situation is unclear."

I wouldn't. What you've quoted is Larry Rosen's view. Larry is a wonderful guy, but his views are pretty far outside the norm for open source lawyers.

To start "If software is licensed under the BSD without forming a contract between licensor and licensee, the extent of any patent grant is at best ambiguous."

This is now settled since he wrote this. It is in fact a contract, that, if breached, leaves the licensor without a copyright license (causing both infringement of copyright and breach of contract).

So you don't have to worry about this.

The latter is a real issue, but one that most explicit grants don't solve either.

In particular, apache/et al have explicit grants do not cover modifications by others that suddenly encompass patents.

So you aren't any better off there either :)

Re: Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

#52
post #26
post #8

There is no way to be safe from patents. Anyone could have them, they don't have to declare them, and they're written in deliberately obtuse ways so that you have no way of finding relevant patents before you're sued for infringing them (you don't have to have copied, or even be aware of, any patented thing to violate a patent). It's just a hazard of the software industry. The BSD license says nothing about patents,…

"You could develop a library in-house in a clean room and it could still infringe someone else's patent." IANAL, but, it is my understanding that if that's the case the patent wouldn't hold up to the novel requirement.

It all depends on how the court sees it.

See "Carmack's Reverse" - where John Carmack independently developed an acceleration for robust stencil shadows, documented his discovery and then had to capitulate to Creative Labs who owned a patent on the algorithm from a few months earlier.

Re: Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

#53
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, if you RTFClaims (which is the first thing you should read), they patented asking for payment for using emoji to respond to content. Which is ridiculous from a business perspective as well.

What is ridiculous about it? LINE is earning millions of dollars from exactly that. On the other hand, I think the patent is invalid because LINE predates this like a year or so.

Wow, I did not imagine people would pay for emoji. I stand corrected.

Re: Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

#54

No. The license has a chilling clause that says if you ever suggest that any Facebook patent might be invalid, your license to use their code is automatically revoked. And in corporate world, that means any comment of any of your employees in an official capacity. Edit downvotes, well maybe the text of the clause will help > The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, for anyone th…

…if you ever suggest that any Facebook patent might be invalid, your license to use their code is automatically revoked. This is not correct — your license to use any patent of Facebook's that covers the software is revoked. You are still not infringing copyright on the software by using it, but you will no longer be protected by Facebook's patent grant, which is in addition to your license to use the software. This…

So if you ever need to sue Facebook for patent infringement - you'll still be able to use React/React Native once they release it?

Re: Ask HN: Is it safe to use Facebook's open source projects?

#55
post #39

Facebook is granting you additional rights on top of the BSD license. In the worst case, where you do something that causes the patent rights to be revoked, you're still left with the same rights you have under the BSD license. This is unambiguously safer to use than if they had released it under a vanilla BSD license. As for why Facebook did this, they're most likely trying to give away additional rights while still…

"Facebook is granting you additional rights on top of the BSD license. In the worst case, where you do something that causes the patent rights to be revoked, you're still left with the same rights you have under the BSD license. This is unambiguously safer to use than if they had released it under a vanilla BSD license. As for why Facebook did this, they're most likely trying to give away additional rights while stil…

Sorry to jump in here - I can't see how to connect with you otherwise. Is React and future React Native not safe to use then? In my mind Facebook could eventually try to enforce, ask for money or other, for patents they hold against you - and if you try to fight them then you'll lose the ability to use this software? That seems horrific to me and something I'm surprised the development community isn't up in arms over.
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