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Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

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51–60 of 154 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#51
My main source of income is very up-and-down. I develop software for jailbroken iOS devices. Once I release something there is a little bump in my income. The iOS7 release and subsequent software-updates gave me a little bump also. It's my absolute passion and I am super happy to be able to do this for a living at this moment.

It won't last forever though. I have a freelance "employer" also but the projects are small and far inbetween.

A big help in this is that I am currently living in S.E. Asia, otherwise this would never (!) work.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#52
post #45

I've been in software development for 20 years now. Started to work as a student at a top consulting firm in my country, at the expense of dropping out of CS studies - real work (and earning good money) was so much more interesting than studying. After that I switched a couple of regular jobs and enjoyed every single one of them: working on real-world problems (electronic banking, multimedia production) together with…

> My carrier was interrupted by unexpectedly getting stuck in remote mountains of east Tibet for almost two years. After returning home I felt professionally disoriented and took on a couple of terrible freelance gigs, working for a year like crazy and earning about 2 EUR per hour (in EU) because of feature creep on a fixed amount project. Almost exactly my situation at the moment. Hoping to get to where you are!

I should have gotten out of that situation way sooner - because of misplaced sense of responsibility I kept trying to make it work for far too long.

Sometimes it is better to just cut your loses and let it go. Then find something better. Nothing is more important than your physical and mental health.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#53
Currently contracting through oDesk. I tend to average about 25 billable hours per week, with the remainder of my time split between learning about technology trends and working on long term personal projects. This led to a six month stint last year as a contractor at a local business that is exploring startup approaches like Agile/Scrum, which was an overwhelmingly positive experience. I was also lucky enough to be a contractor at hp for a year in 2005 but didn’t recognize the potential of making it a career at the time.

Before that I had many years of negative experiences working as a furniture mover, a web developer, a Macintosh technician, and your local neighborhood computer guy. I survived for a year after the housing bust on $6,000 I made flipping PowerPC iMacs that were suffering from the bulging capacitor issue that’s been plaguing electronics. I scratched out income any way I could to support a floundering shareware business, hoping that the “if you build it, they will come” philosophy would pan out, but unfortunately it never did.

If I was a student again and had it to do all over.. hmmm what a question. I think that even today I consider £30,000 a year to be a good income, although a contractor can certainly make more than that at the going hourly rate if they reach full employment. It might help to take a step back and look at software development like any other kind of development. For example in real estate, there is earned and unearned income, and each type has its advantages.

There will always be money in the first type, because people always need things done. Historically contractors have generally been paid more than full time employees, because they are responsible for their own equipment, training, insurance, retirement, etc. Software development requires a great deal of education. If you add up all of the hours, not just in school but on personal time, it’s comparable to a being an architect or civil engineer. Except instead of leveraging the efforts of subcontractors, we employ code. So there is a potential there to make considerably more money. There is no ceiling on income for software contractors.

The second type works more like speculation. Yes, a client might make a million dollars from the code you develop. But the odds are extremely high (I would put them around 50/50, maybe even up to 90%) that he or she will break even or possibly lose money. The contractor gets paid first, after that it’s anyone’s guess. I had every advantage (a degree, a brief period of no bills living with my father after I graduated college, even a dot bomb to open up opportunities over the competition) but I was unable to find any traction with the products I was creating. The tech industry has rose colored glasses. For every overnight success, there are hundreds, even thousands of failures. Successful speculators in software are like the ones in real estate. Generally they just don’t touch the code. They’ve either put in their time and earned their wings, or they have a personal calling inside themselves to outsource the details and focus on the big picture. And perhaps most importantly, they have access to capital. I have come to peace with the fact that I would rather be in the trenches than flying a desk.

But say it’s the year 2000 again, I’m fresh out of college and Facebook hasn’t been invented yet, and I want to be in the second camp. It’s not going to happen selling shareware games, or scratching out a living doing odd jobs, or pulling all nighters with other hackers. As far as I can tell (and the simplicity of this took me a decade to grok), the secret is growth. I know it sounds mundane, but if you look at any successful company, they are always growing. So fresh out of school, I would have done my contract at hp first, to just see how established companies do things. Everything is about interoperability, passing data back and forth to different teams, being able to explain your work to others. It’s vanilla, and boring, but allows for scale. Then I would have taken my savings for the year (I would have only spent about a quarter to half of my earnings) and used that to bootstrap myself over the next year, meeting local developers and the clients they work for. I would have found myself designing websites, probably learning about the gotchas of scaling databases, but today it’s all about apps and SAAS and scaling interfaces and interoperating with mobile devices. I would have quickly found that there is high demand for such work. High enough that I couldn’t respond to all of the job invites coming my way, and would have to make a choice either to become a team of developers or cater to more selective clients. At some point I would have crossed a threshold where my priorities switched from survival to planning. To me, that means having six months of income or more saved so you can work on your own without answering to anyone. And more importantly, having a trade that allows you to build your savings again in case of failure (which is likely). Then I would have had a history of a few successfully completed projects under my belt, and could think about hiring myself and others.

Then I would either write a solution for a company and sell it at $10,000 a pop, or look at the niche they are ignoring and write the app that fills it. Knowing how I am, I’d go for the second option. It’s almost always something that people want really badly, that they’re willing to pay for, that they just can’t get easily (preferably software related so it can scale). In my fantasy, this would be a wifi box that gives you free internet by way of distributed hashing (hey, I can dream, that’s why I got my degree in computer engineering), and I’d just build them out of my garage and sell them locally for a few hundred dollars each until we hit scale. Maybe another option is a $99 app that runs on your cell phone, something that crosses wifi mode and tethering to create a mesh network. The prospect of canceling one’s internet and cable bills is almost too sweet to think about rationally. Then everyone in the country would want one, and we’d have more work than we could handle, and we’d sell to Elon Musk or Richard Branson or whoever for a billion dollars. I probably have, I don’t know, a few dozen, maybe a hundred ideas like this that I would like to do, but never had the savings to attempt such things, until recently. Most of them are not nearly this audacious.

But just out of college, my highest priority was “just finishing this game I’ve been working on for years” and I missed out on a ton of opportunities. So I think that kind of nagging, soul crushing worry is something to be very wary of, because it’s hindered the careers of countless developers. I should have focused on a concrete product, with say a three month development time, that I could sell for real dollars, that people would tell their friends about. The shareware and app markets are saturated, so for a fraction of the effort, I could have created new niches. I should have listened more closely when my family had trouble setting up their email and written a $5 solution for them, that solved the decision tree of username, password, pop/smtp, ssl, etc once and for all, and sidestepped the necessity of hosted tools like gmail. I remember being surprised that Apple implemented it in their Mail.app years later. Such low lying fruit could have been so lucrative in the early 2000s. It would have sidestepped app stores and marketing by going viral. Crossing that magical curve from $100 a month to $1,000 and then $10,000 would have put me well on my way to making a meaningful contribution. Instead I floundered, and let the internet lottery distract me from networking, bootstrapping and compound growth.

P.S. It’s worth noting that I’ve only had a six month cushion twice in my life, and didn’t keep my eye on the ball. I let others talk me out of it. Those times were after long term contracts, but my current goal is to get there independently. Sorry this got so long.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#54
post #14

"...can't help feeling i'm building a dream for someone else." The reason so many people are content with being employees, rather than striking it out on their own, has to do (at least in part) with their risk tolerance. If you want a stable, steady income, and you don't want to put a lot of your own money at risk, then you might find that being an employee is the way to go. Yes, other people (investors in the compan…

Risk aversion should not be an issue in your twenties. Packing a crew of developers into a house or apartment cant be any worse than living in a dorm. Even in your thirties failures can be managed with the help of a supportive spouse (whatever the flavor of the relationship).

I am a textbook case of a guy ho did not manage his entrepreneurial career properly. Like a lot of HNers I am basically introverted. Even worse I grew up in a culture, rural Maine, here you did not ask for help; you did it yourself. I had other advantages: degree from a top flight school and college friends that were or became wealthy. But I didnt take advantage of all this, I kept trying to do it all myself. I started several companies which were ultimately unsuccessful. Between startups I supported myself by consulting with a good 6 figure income. Finally in my 60s I became less risk intolerant. My partner got some kind of autoimmune disease which meant I needed good health insurance and a steady income. The downside is that the startup adventures and a divorce left me with no savings or investments at all.

So my advice is to cultivate your circle of friends and serious acquaintances. Learn to present yourself and your ideas effectively. I think a first time, straight out of college personal startup is a real crap shoot, but at the same failure costs nothing. The advantage of being an employee is that you learn what a real company is like. A relatively new company with fewer than 100 employees should show you what a post-startup company looks like yet give you personal flexibility. You will learn about such things as sexual harassment policies, hiring, corporate culture, that can be very expensive to learn by trial and error.

If you are looking for a startup, one lead by people with previous startup experience, successful or not, can be a good bet. Your share ill be smaller, but your chances of success will be larger.

If you have been admitted to a graduate program at Stanford, go for it.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#55
post #46

I compete with people who are willing to work for $1/hr, on freelance sites like oDesk - occasionally someone picks me so I earn few bucks to get by. If I try to charge more people usually accept workers who charge the same amount as me but are from more western countries. Ideally I'd settle for some junior dev type of position with reasonable(read: low/acceptable) salary, but without college degree and living in Eur…

can I ask you where you're from? There's plenty of work for good coders, you seem very delusional. Try to send some resume

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#56
Two weeks ago my money came from the startup I worked for.

But I have now switched to freelancing, with said startup being my only client at the moment. I might look for more clients later, but I’m hoping to make money through Gittip and releasing my own products instead. Like you, I want to be in charge of my own destiny, even if that means not doing what has conventionally worked for others.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#57
post #55
post #46

I compete with people who are willing to work for $1/hr, on freelance sites like oDesk - occasionally someone picks me so I earn few bucks to get by. If I try to charge more people usually accept workers who charge the same amount as me but are from more western countries. Ideally I'd settle for some junior dev type of position with reasonable(read: low/acceptable) salary, but without college degree and living in Eur…

can I ask you where you're from? There's plenty of work for good coders, you seem very delusional. Try to send some resume

Sorry, delusional about which part?

In my experience, people are more likely to hire US/UK based workers for higher paying jobs than for example Indians or people from countries. Does that happen always? No, of course not. I've had clients from a bunch of different countries. Hell, maybe I'm completely wrong - but that's how it seems to me. Maybe it's just me. I'm not excellent programmer, nor do I claim to be, maybe that's it.

As far as the part about finding work in EU goes, the biggest hurdle (that I've been told) is getting paperwork for someone without college degree.

Maybe I'm delusional, maybe I'm a shitty coder, maybe I just had bad experiences, maybe you're right. I don't know.

Oh and I'm from Bosna/Serbia - don't even get me started about getting a job that pays acceptably in those countries....

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#58
Dropped out of college a little more than two years ago, moved to nyc, started freelancing and got tired of trying to source clients for their social networks, so started company (bootstrapped) that mines/crowd-sources data online about people. We should hit low 6 figures in revenue by end of the summer (in the middle of scaling our ops now, started generating revenue this mid jan). I'm 22 and my friend is 27.

Through my journey (many ups and downs), I've started to respect a lot more when some people say to not trade your time for money (or debt) and all the pressures society (and the different people that may be in ones environment who may) try to place upon you as an individual, because in exchange you can have the freedom to take risks and pursue whatever you want to do. I had that mindset when I was younger, but I was briefly co opted by the rat race which set me off my ways. Life is too fleeting for me to want to waste time doing/worrying about things that don't work for me.

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#59
Worked hard for 10 years in various web development shops, started a company with two of the smartest people I met during that time, sold it, worked through golden handcuffs, and had a nice exit. Now I live off of interest from fixed income investments and am currently looking to pivot my career from web development into computer graphics/games/VR since I think a revolution is coming. I love programming and don't need to work but really want to build cool stuff. In broad strokes I'm where I set out to be when I graduated in college -- I didn't know the tactics but I knew the strategy. I'm in my early thirties.

This is probably the most important book you'll read at your age:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Millionaire-Fastlane-Wealth-Lifeti...

Re: Ask HN: How do you earn your money?

#60
I grew up in a small town in Russia during 80s and early 90s. I found my first job as a developer building accounting software in Pascal when I was 15. I remember spending my first paycheck (about $100) buying winter boots. It wasn't enough, my mom ended up pitching in. :)

As soon as I graduated, I moved to a larger city to work for a company doing offshore development in C++. I was paid $4 / hr, managing to put in about 250 hours a month. I only ended up working there for 6 months before I moved on to the next stage.

I moved to the US in 2000 to work for Microsoft in Redmond. Microsoft was good, but it quickly became obvious that there was no way to make real money, even though I doubled my paycheck in 4 years I spent there. I started at $66K / yr, ended up around $130K when I left at the end of 2004 to go and work for Google.

Except that I didn't go to Google. :) I interviewed, got an offer and used it to get an offer from a smaller company where I felt I could do more. I wanted to be a big fish in a small pond and Google already felt to me like a big pond. Their offer was for $150K and ~10,000 shares with strike price of ~$170. Smaller company offered $200K base, $50K bonus and 2% of the company. In 2004 that was a lot of money.

The smaller company didn't do as well as I expected. I only made about $3M from stock versus $5-10M I could have made from Google. But I met some good people there. But 2009 I was a VP and making close to $450K / yr. I left in 2009 to work on a startup with a couple friends. We sold it at the end of 2010 for $15M and almost immediately started another one.

Right now I work as a CTO for that other startup. We had $40M in revenue last year and on track to be at $90-$100M this year.

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