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Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

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Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#51
I have not had to do that and might not want to. But nothing on a US driver's license is private information anyway. Banks, credit reporting agencies, car dealerships, landlords, police, etc. all have access to your license info and much more. So I wouldn't call it "incredibly invasive."

Easy to blame the hosting company, or the government, but it's the bad actors and fraudsters and scammers who drive these kinds of rules. I'd rather have to show a hosting provider my ID than have all of their IPs blocked out of the blue one day because they rented a VPS to a scammer or botnet, maybe using my name and credit card number to do it.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#52
post #5

KYC is already required at banks and they have the most complete - and global - view of all transaction flows . Therefore we should insist that KYC be solely performed by banks - no other firms should be required to perform it. Given the extraordinary privileges that banks enjoy, this would be a reasonable contribution to society - especially given that they are doing it anyway .

> we should insist that KYC be solely performed by banks That sounds like a great way of preventing anyone who doesn’t have a bank account from being able to use services at all. There are ~1.7 Billion people in the world that are unbanked. Even in the US alone there are around 55 million unbanked adults. (2018 numbers) I think we should push for the opposite. Less KYC all around.

I don't think KYC laws keep people un-banked. According to the Federal Reserve only about 5% of adult Americans don't have a bank account. KYC is relatively easy to comply with, about the same as getting a library card. But if a person has a history of writing bad checks or running up overdrafts they can't get a bank account. And some percentage of Americans don't trust banks and remain un-banked by choice.

Source for your claim of 55 million unbanked American adults? That's 21% of the 2020 US adult population, and four times higher than what the Fed reports. If America had 55 million potential customers banks would be tripping over each other opening new accounts at McDonalds.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#53
post #47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you similarly against KYC rules when it comes to people trying to exchange scrap bundles of copper wire they "found lying around" into cash? I'm against them if they're opaquely administered by private entities, yes. That's guaranteed to be abused. The problem isn't having rules, the problem is having no due process and no oversight or recourse.

It seems to me you don't want less-legislation as much as different-legislation. In a "hands off" scenario where the only only factor for companies becomes "avoid losing a civil lawsuit for Failing To Do Enough to stop a criminal you assisted", they will still create an opaque system with no due-process/oversight/recourse. They will do that by default, because it's cheaper.

> In a "hands off" scenario where the only only factor for companies becomes "avoid losing a civil lawsuit for Failing To Do Enough to stop a criminal you assisted", they will still create an opaque system with no due-process/oversight/recourse. They will do that by default, because it's cheaper.

I can understand the theoretical argument that they would. But in reality they didn't prior to the (relatively) recent AML laws, and other entities not subject to those laws largely don't.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#55
post #51

I have not had to do that and might not want to. But nothing on a US driver's license is private information anyway. Banks, credit reporting agencies, car dealerships, landlords, police, etc. all have access to your license info and much more. So I wouldn't call it "incredibly invasive." Easy to blame the hosting company, or the government, but it's the bad actors and fraudsters and scammers who drive these kinds of…

> it's the bad actors and fraudsters and scammers who drive these kinds of rules.

Your logic is used by bad teachers in kindergarten to justify group sanction because of a single person's misconduct. I have never seen a bad actor driving rules against his own actions (exceptions exist).

In a society, there will be bad actors. No matter what you do. You can decrease the likelihood of it happening, or mitigate the impact, e.g. by setting rules. Costs for executing these rules should be weighed against the benefits.

If a driver's license is public information, why would they ask for it? If it indeed is public, they don't need to ask for it, because sending it doesn't hold value. If it is not public information, they have to ask for it, and then the fact that you are able to send it to them holds value. Them having the ability to send that information again, can be perceived as, or is, invasive.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#57
post #55
post #51

I have not had to do that and might not want to. But nothing on a US driver's license is private information anyway. Banks, credit reporting agencies, car dealerships, landlords, police, etc. all have access to your license info and much more. So I wouldn't call it "incredibly invasive." Easy to blame the hosting company, or the government, but it's the bad actors and fraudsters and scammers who drive these kinds of…

> it's the bad actors and fraudsters and scammers who drive these kinds of rules. Your logic is used by bad teachers in kindergarten to justify group sanction because of a single person's misconduct. I have never seen a bad actor driving rules against his own actions (exceptions exist). In a society, there will be bad actors. No matter what you do. You can decrease the likelihood of it happening, or mitigate the impa…

> Your logic is used by bad teachers in kindergarten to justify group sanction because of a single person's misconduct.

The rules we're talking about -- know your customer -- don't come from my logic. They got implemented specifically to fight terrorism and funding terrorism and money laundering (originally part of the Patriot Act, 2001). So yes, everyone got sanctioned because of the "misconduct" of a few people. Whether we agree with that approach or not governments often do exactly that kind of thing. It's the nature of governments and laws to apply rules to everyone at once, and frequently everyone gets "sanctioned" by laws that got written because of a few bad actors. I think about that every time I have to go through security to board a plane.

> I have never seen a bad actor driving rules against his own actions (exceptions exist).

I didn't write that the bad actors make the rules. Their actions lead to the rules, e.g. the rules get driven by the bad actors.

> You can decrease the likelihood of it happening, or mitigate the impact, e.g. by setting rules.

Rules tend to work both ways. Laws against drunk driving, to take just one example, seek to both decrease the likelihood of drunk drivers, and to mitigate the impact through enforcement and punishment, and through legal liability. KYC laws seek to do the same thing: prevent money laundering in the first place, and enable enforcement and punishment.

> Costs for executing these rules should be weighed against the benefits.

We could debate how the world should work all day long, but I'll stick with how it actually works.

> If a driver's license is public information, why would they ask for it?

I didn't write that licenses are public information. I wrote "nothing on a US driver's license is private information." See the difference? The opposite of "private" is not "public." Lots of people and businesses have access to that information. My photo and address may as well be public, anyone with a computer can find those. Driver's licenses are issued by states, with your implied consent to give all of that information and let them print it on a card. The invasion, if you want to call it that, happened when you voluntarily obtained the license. As you might expect, the US has laws around privacy of driver's license information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_Privacy_Protection_...

So while not exactly public, that information isn't really private, either. Note provision 3 of the Driver's Privacy Act: "For use in the normal course of business by a legitimate business or its agents, employees, or contractors, but only to ... verify the accuracy of personal information." So a VPS provider or any other business needing or wanting to verify a person's identity can ask to see a license as a form of identification. You don't have to show it to them, but they don't have to take your business either.

My license has this information, none of which I think of as particularly private:

- State of issue

- Date of issue and expiration

- License number assigned by the state

- Photo of my face

- My full legal name from my birth certificate (a public record)

- My address at the time I obtained the license

- My date of birth

- My height, weight, hair, and eye color

- My signature - What kinds of vehicles I can legally operate

Anyone could find out almost all of that with Google. People put more private personal information in their Facebook and LinkedIn profiles.

> If it indeed is public, they don't need to ask for it, because sending it doesn't hold value.

Do you understand the difference between looking up someone's license information in a database, and doing what bar bouncers and banks and apparently French hosting companies do -- asking to see the license in your hands alongside your face? Do you think passports would work if you could just write down your passport number and tell the immigration agents to look it up, because they potentially can do that? The license has value as identification when someone can visually compare it to the person it belongs to, see that the person is in possession of the identification, and confirm at least some of the information on the license -- already vetted in some way by the state -- matches information the person gave. It's a kind of physical two-factor authentication.

> Them having the ability to send that information again, can be perceived as, or is, invasive.

Collecting driver's licenses and then "sending that information again" would violate the law I cited above. If I gave a photo of my license to a hosting company and could then prove they gave or sold that to some other company without my consent, I would have a cause of action in court.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#58
Of course, you’re not crazy. The more the number of people who just give in, the larger and more widespread this problem becomes.

IMO, this is one of the ways governments get more ideas — to encourage companies or have them collect a lot of data so that they (the government agencies) can legally (or even illegally) demand them for mass surveillance and their expeditions. It’s like a fire hose that won’t stop.

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#59

I think Hetzner is doing this as well now. I’m assuming they’re required to.

I ran into this with Hetzner recently, but instead of ID, they also accepted a pre-payment of 20€ instead (will be used as credit for further purchases).

Re: Ask HN: Would you send a photo holding your drivers license to rent a VPS?

#60

Why OVH? I've had awful experience using their services... Vultr, Linode, UpCloud, Hetzner are far better options... none of them require this nonsense.

Hetzner has asked some HN'ers for passport scans [0], and in my case, they asked me to consent to a video scan of my face, with some of ersatz machine vision [1]. Their loss. [0] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hetzner%20passport&type=commen... [1] https://www.idenfy.com/identity-verification-service/

Hetzner requires me to provide a photographed government ID.
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