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Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#51

Post by p_l »

moronix wrote: post #4

For the most part, I believe it is all about the management and troubleshooting ability from the ISP side. You can buy ONT devices, but I think that the OLT device of the ISP must support the one you bought, which really defeats the purpose of buying it. There are even SFP modules that can work as an ONT interface. Really your best bet is to ask your ISP if they can bridge a port on the ONT so you can use your own ro…

  > Really your best bet is to ask your ISP if they can bridge a port on the ONT so you can use your own router after that without double NAT. In this scenario the ONT will be functioning mainly as a media converter.
An ONT is already a bridge - those are for the cases when you have integrated ONT in a router provided by your ISP.

If you are provisioned with ONT, you can connect your own router to it

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#52

Post by p_l »

koliber wrote: post #11

I'm in Poland. When I had fiber installed I asked the provider if they could install an ONT. They balked a bit but eventually relented. They provided their own ONT at no extra cost. Orange is the provider, in case anyone is interested. It's up to the discretion of the installer. I think being able to speak in technical terms and provide a decent argument convinced the installer. I got a feeling that they don't genera…

In practice, it's a matter of region (for Orange Poland). For various reasons (supply chain?) they prefer to keep ONT only for particularly motivated business clients, or mostly further away from cities.

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#53

Post by p_l »

nicolaslem wrote: post #17
madjam002 wrote: post #10

A good fibre ISP will have a separate ONT and router, so you can still pick your own router. The ONT should be considered part of the ISPs network and not tampered with or replaced. Fibre with an ONT (PON) is a shared medium with other customers, and trying to use your own equipment has the possibility of degrading service for other customers.

The same can be said of cellular networks where in most part of the world connecting your own equipment is accepted and expected.

It grew out of many countries licensing the specific devices at national/trans-national level, not telco level.

Though there were throwbacks, like early iPhone, with special tariffs, but those were 95% for business reasons not explained to end buyer and 5% for marking the terminal in network as "the one that is slightly out of spec and remember to special case call redirection"

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#55

Post by maratc »

p_l wrote: post #50
maratc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not certain of the entire stack beyond my house, but the device they brought for installation was sealed in the box that said "Media Converter" (not "ONT") on the box. It could still be the case that they somehow set it up remotely, or it could be that no setup was needed. For all I know, I tested my connection with PPPoE.

Yep, that's ONT. They are provisioned remotely over network from controller run by ISP, which sets up appropriate timeslots (xPON is a time-division multiplexed network in practice, though DWDM - wavelength modulation - is also used). Internet -> ISP network -> PPPoE -> OLT (head unit) -> passive fiber network (and/or DWDM) -> passive splitter close to home (often in inside appartment buildings) -> ONT -> ethernet to…

Can you please expand on how much of that chain can be qualified as "Ethernet" (or "TCP/IP") and how much is "neither at all", and how different that is from e.g. a classic "DSL with ATM" chain?

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#56

Post by p_l »

maratc wrote: post #55
p_l wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's ONT. They are provisioned remotely over network from controller run by ISP, which sets up appropriate timeslots (xPON is a time-division multiplexed network in practice, though DWDM - wavelength modulation - is also used). Internet -> ISP network -> PPPoE -> OLT (head unit) -> passive fiber network (and/or DWDM) -> passive splitter close to home (often in inside appartment buildings) -> ONT -> ethernet to…

Can you please expand on how much of that chain can be qualified as "Ethernet" (or "TCP/IP") and how much is "neither at all", and how different that is from e.g. a classic "DSL with ATM" chain?

From OLT to ONT, and everything in between, is handled by non-ethernet/non-IP protocols over which you can tunnel whatever higher level protocol you want.

Technically that can continue to whatever hosts PPPoE gateway. Ultimately, OLT is "root node", and ONTs are "leaf nodes" of a passive optical network tree. What is distributed over it is less of interest to it. But that's why you often have ONTs called "media converters" - though they aren't exactly that. A typical ONT also includes xPON MAC component as well as all management functions necessary to login into xPON network, establish session, etc. and demux transported protocol to whatever is delivered on the other side (nearly always ethernet)

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#57

Post by semi-extrinsic »

alufers wrote: post #16

I'm not sure where you live (probably the US), but here in Europe you can easily get GPON ONTs from different manufacturers. There even are whole communities dedicated to replacing your ISP's ONT+modem combo: https://hack-gpon.org/quick-start In some countries (Germany) it's super easy, because there are laws forcing the ISPs to allow customer provided equipment, while in other countries you need to do some hackery w…

Where I live, I just plug the fiber straight into a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X. All the setup needed, which was documented on a local forum, was to buy the correct SFP module and to set a specific VLAN tag on the WAN port.

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#58

Post by Hikikomori »

alufers wrote: post #16

I'm not sure where you live (probably the US), but here in Europe you can easily get GPON ONTs from different manufacturers. There even are whole communities dedicated to replacing your ISP's ONT+modem combo: https://hack-gpon.org/quick-start In some countries (Germany) it's super easy, because there are laws forcing the ISPs to allow customer provided equipment, while in other countries you need to do some hackery w…

>The biggest problem for me about the ISP routers is their sheer size, they probably make them big so that they seem "powerful" to the average person and he chooses that ISP believing that their router provides superior Wi-Fi.

Size is not just for fun, if you have mu-mimo capable device with multiple antennas you need distance between them. Same with the spider like gaming routers, its not just aesthetics.

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#59

Post by chaz6 »

PaulAJ wrote: post #15

The ONT's job is to translate from (typically) Ethernet to the optical fibre, and nothing else. In networking terms its "Level 1"; concerned only with moving bits from one end to the other. Most ISPs will provide an ONT which does that and nothing else, and then a regular router/firewall that plugs in to the ONT via Ethernet. Your security barrier is the firewall in the router, plus whatever encryption you apply to c…

It is not quite as simple. The ONT also maps services to ports. Take for instance an ONT with 4 ethernet ports and 1 FXO port. The FXO port can be mapped to a SIP service, and each ethernet port can be mapped to a different network service. They can even have multiple tagged VLANs. Multi-port ONT's are often used to deliver services to multiple businesses sharing a premesis, or those that want an equivalent to a leased line in combination with an internet service.

Re: Ask HN: Why does it seem hard to buy an ONT for fiber?

#60

Post by Hikikomori »

maratc wrote: post #35

"Modem" stands for "modulator-demodulator" and it is there to convert the TCP/IP traffic in your house to some sort of non-TCP/IP connection that goes to your ISP. In case of cable provider, I believe the outgoing protocol is called DOCSIS, and in case of a telephone provider it could be ADSL/VDSL etc. (Historically some also used ATM above the physical layer.) The modem is there to do that translation. With fiber, t…

Calling something a modem is more about what the signal looks like on the wire and not about translating anything.
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