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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#51

Post by tchaffee »

riebnik wrote: post #22
closewith wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

Because of the additional cost that the employer is imposed on by the state in Germany. I bet that the total cost per employee is pretty close.

You need to give the actual numbers, otherwise I don't believe it.

The cost is not close when you consider US tech employees who earn almost double what EU and UK employees earn. Corporate taxes in the UK have traditionally been lower than the US and UK companies don't pay for medical insurance. It's simpler and cheaper to launch a startup in the UK compared to the US.

I doubt the situation is much different between US and German or German and Irish companies. It's rare in my experience that companies can explain away salary differences by showing cost differences. Which should shock no one. Most companies seek to minimize labor costs and at best pay close to local market rates. Or even hire in foreign markets to reduce labor costs. If instead they were seeking to share profits you might see the result you're describing.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#52

Post by ivanhoe »

> I used to love going to the office.

I hated going to office (and that's why I stopped doing it like 20 years ago).

But it's not a case of one of us being right and the other wrong, it's just that some people are more extrovert, and some are more introvert, and we simply don't enjoy the same things.

Now, being introvert doesn't mean I hate other people. I actually enjoy in daily interactions with my colleagues, and with many of them (current and ex) I'm a close friend, we (and our families) socialize outside the work regularly - but we don't need to be locked for 8h in the same building for that. Being able to do it on our own time and terms is actually much more rewarding for everyone.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#53

Post by jleyank »

I’ll say this every time this thread appears - if companies felt they could outsource/offshore their work they would have done it 10-20 years ago and you’d never have had this discussion. They tried. Some worked out, some didn’t and for the latter work came back.

It’s the herding cats problem re talent. What you can do with a “a few good people” can’t be done with a crowd. Read Brooks.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#54

Post by closewith »

riebnik wrote: post #47
closewith wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because of the additional cost that the employer is imposed on by the state in Germany. There are similar employer taxes (at somewhat lower rates, topping out at ~11% vs ~18%), but the total cost of employment in Dublin is much higher than Berlin.

Is it though? https://blog.eurodev.com/costs-of-hiring-european-employees Also, in Germany you have a lot of holiday (20 minimum, most companies pffer 30), 3 month notice period, 3 years parental leave (per child), pricing these in, I would always expect lower salary in Germany.

With respect, minimum paid leave in Ireland is 30 days (20 days + 10 public holidays). While paid parental leave is not a legal right, all the developer jobs offer sick leave, generous parental leave, notice periods, vesting, etc.

Commercial property, services, etc are far cheaper in Berlin. Hence why it's common to move start-up dev teams from Dublin to Berlin to save money. My own experience is that Berlin is significantly cheaper to employ developers in particular.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#55

Post by pawelpro »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #40
kstenerud wrote: post #2

There's nothing controversial. You like working in an office. Cool. Go work in an office. I don't like working in an office. Cool. I work from home. The only thing that's changed is that we have more choice now. Like when I finally landed the first job where I didn't have to wear a tie anymore.

The problem for us office advocates is that you travel into an empty office and sit on Zoom calls anyway. Of course we shouldn't drag you into the office just to appease us, but the experience of working together is effectively not available right now.

An elegant solution to this has already been proposed: go and share an office with like-minded people from the same or across different companies.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#56

Post by throwaway294566 »

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do.

You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts introverts like me, and I do suspect we are the majority (but I have only anecdata for that).

> I know that "the office" is a bad place for a lot of people. [...] But shouldn't we rather work on fixing those things instead of making them bearable by just turning off a camera in a Zoom meeting?

Things have gotten worse and worse around the office. Small one- or few-person offices gave way to cubicles, which gave way to open-plan offices, which gave way to open-plan seat-lottery not-even-your-own-desk offices. No amount of pushback changed this direction in the slightest. Meanwhile noise and interruptions got worse and worse, where in my private office people knocked politely before entering or were kept out by the DND sign, nowadays the seat lottery puts me next to a loudmouthed marketing phone-drone, who when not screaming into the mic drones on about his awesome sales statistics and his new yacht. At least the boss can't easily walk over anymore and breathe down my neck because the seat lottery put him somewhere else usually. Any and all things that have been tried to fix this are band-aids and lip-service. It only got worse and worse.

WFH is great, finally a step in the right direction. I do have no sympathy for the extroverts, because they got us into the aforementioned mess.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#57

Post by jleyank »

dorwi wrote: post #44

It seems to me that you indeed realised that majority of the people (in your bubble) have an opposite opinion on this issue than you have, but somehow you still think that they are wrong, and you listed why they are wrong (except the few that you can sympathise with, like parents, caregivers and so on) Don't get me wrong, I enjoy office work as well, but I realise that I'm not the youngest anymore and the world is ch…

The office can be great for socializing, but if you change your social circle every 1-3 years it makes them somewhat shallow or transitory. If they stay with you, given the current trends, they’re anywhere but the office you’re currently sitting in. My closest friends came from uni and have stuck with me. Longest, closest relationships and all that.

And this discussion assumes you live in a tech hub doing tech hub things. Specialize and you start moving to where the jobs are and uprooting to move sux.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#58

Post by tchaffee »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #40
kstenerud wrote: post #2

There's nothing controversial. You like working in an office. Cool. Go work in an office. I don't like working in an office. Cool. I work from home. The only thing that's changed is that we have more choice now. Like when I finally landed the first job where I didn't have to wear a tie anymore.

The problem for us office advocates is that you travel into an empty office and sit on Zoom calls anyway. Of course we shouldn't drag you into the office just to appease us, but the experience of working together is effectively not available right now.

Only if you work with all people who highly value remote work. My office always has people there. And we have the option to work fully remote. Some people have never been to the office.

Finding the right company culture for you is often overlooked in favor of things like the right tech stack.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#59

Post by jrmg »

I think a lot of people have genuinely just forgotten what they liked about office-based work.

We returned to the office part-time recently, and the sentiment of ‘I’d forgotten how great it was just seeing everyone in person!’ is often expressed. I’ve certainly felt it.

Would be interested to hear if that’s a common thought amongst folks here who’ve also returned.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#60

Post by kaffee »

jleyank wrote: post #53

I’ll say this every time this thread appears - if companies felt they could outsource/offshore their work they would have done it 10-20 years ago and you’d never have had this discussion. They tried. Some worked out, some didn’t and for the latter work came back. It’s the herding cats problem re talent. What you can do with a “a few good people” can’t be done with a crowd. Read Brooks.

For anyone scratching their head, I suspect "Brooks" == Mythical Man-Month, The: Essays on Software Engineering by Frederick Brooks Jr.
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