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Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

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Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#51
Yeah web development went from being a passion to just being a job where I now feel like I just play the complexity game with teammates, managers, and stakeholders.

I don't care about this stuff anymore. I only care about the paycheck.

Yeah, the technology is cool... we do Docker containers... so its a 'microservices' web app with a remote registry for our containers plus a bunch of disgusting npm packages and weird frontend react client bloat.

I prefer my side-projects. They are succinct and concise. No bloat. Just DIY simplicity.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#52

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

Speaking of ops. What is the simplest reproducible way to accomplish this task. - create vm instance ( setup firewall, users, network dna, stuff) - install : apache, runtime - install app.

A single ansible yaml

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#53
React tooling is only getting easier, esp. considering anyone coming from the age of Webpack. The recent wave of framework innovation has been about DX by bundling things together into one cohesive experience. Also, nobody is required to keep up with the bleeding edge unless you're a framework author trying to breakout. If you don't like the marginal benefits provided by some performance story in React, then don't do it.

There are also more easier-than-Heroku competitors than ever.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#54

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

Speaking of ops. What is the simplest reproducible way to accomplish this task. - create vm instance ( setup firewall, users, network dna, stuff) - install : apache, runtime - install app.

All the responses you got so far suggest exactly what this "Ask HN" actually wants to avoid: Terraform, AMI, Packer, Ansible, Chef ..., the list goes on

Here is my suggestion for keeping it simple, by solely relying on skills you will need anyways: git and shell scripting.

- Write a shell script that executes all those commands you would run manually to set up your system.

- Put up a git repository in the `/` directory, `.gitignore` everything by default, and explicitly git-notignore all those configuration files and user files/maintenance scripts which are relevant for your environment. Use githooks to also track/restore file permissions and ownerships of these tracked files.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#55
There is a huge shortage of developers on corporate information security teams. Many organizations' CorpSec teams spend an egregious amount of time toiling in manual processes. In infosec, that is why you constantly hear of burnout.

If you wanted to switch into information security as a developer, many well-paying, well-known orgs would welcome you in with open arms in some kind of automation developer role. I have never felt better about my job prospects.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#56
post #4

Using React with an API back-end is only 1 of many choices. There's tools like Hotwire[0] and htmx[1] (both are back-end agnostic) that will let you create good old boring web apps with any back-end language where you don't need to write a ton of JS. You can sprinkle in front-end quality of life enhancements as needed to make nice feeling web apps with reasonably minimal complexity. [0]: https://hotwired.dev/ [1]: ht…

Nothing involving React will resolve the complexity issue... The benefits react provides in functionality (page transitions and controls) could have been better addressed within web browsers, but the process of web design is constantly trying to resolve front end issues in code to suit a wide variety of OS versions and browsers, which is where a big problem lies... i don't have the answers myself, but this urge to us…

Amen

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#57
A couple people have asked what complexities I’m referring to and mainly what I mean is just how much bloat goes into making anything, and at a higher level the general course of action seems to be to just keep adding to the system until you get what you want out of it instead of trying to fix or improve underlying problems with the web.

I know we can’t just pause the internet while everyone comes to a consensus on how we want to make it more interactive and fix underlying problems, but at least to me it seems like all the effort that could be spent working towards that is instead being spent figuring out ways to just avoid as much of the underlying pieces as possible by jamming your own implementation on top of it.

I agree that getting setup and using things like React or Node for a backend is easy, but the number of dependencies, size of the app, tooling needed, memory used are all going to grow exponentially as soon as you start trying to do something non trivial, and the solution to fix these problems is yet again to add more complexity, where you will need to learn a lot more about how all of those nice tools that just worked for you out of the box are actually working

This isn’t a React or a frontend specific example entirely, but I’ve seen many people jump into creating a simple app and right off the bat implementing a federated GraphQL design because of all the great things they heard about GraphQL from the community, which is fine but a very simple REST design would have worked just as well if not better and would be in my opinion much simpler to maintain and manage complex things like caching.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#58

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> The only thing you can do (besides leave it all behind and open a taqueria) is be a voice for simplicity. What are we going to build? What tools make sense for it?

I tried to do this at several companies and ended up feeling like a pariah. At the end of the day, engineers, especially younger ones, like to follow trends, "learn new things", pad their resumes, and build bespoke solutions. Trying to fight against this will only make you look like a troglodyte or a party pooper.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#59
post #42

Frontend development jumped the shark for sure. Why can’t we go back to the old server-side template rendering and use progressive JS for interactivity? Just like the good old days.

You can do that if you're building a website, but people want to build desktop-class applications these days, and you can't just sprinkle some JS on server-side rendering and make it behave like that. Also, the same people with a lot of experience in backend work probably aren't that good at creating GUIs, and vice versa.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#60
Yes, I did exactly this and for the same reasons. I left web development in 2015 when the tooling was starting to get a bit silly. I had an opportunity to move into devops and system administration at the same company and team so I took it. I'm still finding it enjoyable and I do like how much more powerful the point of simplicity is in this field.
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