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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#51

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

The cost of living point is very valid. A great salary in Hanoi is most likely to be a very low wage in San Francisco. You can't expect an employer to pay way above the local market rate for a position. Bottom line, they will always find someone to work if they offer a bit above the local market rates. The salary, whatever miles away makes no difference.

As far as how to deal with it, look a round you I bet your salary is a very good wage for the area you live in. If not then find a job with a local company that pays better. Software developers get paid well all over the world relative to where they live.

BTW, even with the wages in Silicon Valley, most developers there can't afford a house close to where they work. Inability to buy a house with local wages is a common problem in the big cities of the world so it's not an issue related to your area alone.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#52

Post by wahnfrieden »

tlb wrote: post #47
wahnfrieden wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing valid about it except that it's an established coordinated behavior of employers to reduce pay based on region instead of anything to do with value produced

Wages have never been based on value produced, at any time, in any industry. Although there may be some coordination, coordination isn't necessary for wages to be unrelated to value produced, because that's the default condition. It would take some impressive central planning to have wages actually match value produced. Doctrinaire economists used to argue that value produced sets an upper bound on pay, since why wou…

I'm just pointing out the coordination because it's typical for employers to shame workers for talking pay while engaging in it themselves and lots of people I know believe it at face value. Owners shame people over it because they're scared of it because it works

I loved Graeber/Wengrow's last book, transformative, need to read BS Jobs (do other yc folks read graeber? I know for instance he tears down a few points others like andreessen and horowitz take for granted as axiomatic to their ideologies based on a recent interview with them; pardon the surprise to see you reference it)

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#53

Post by rtlfe »

seibelj wrote: post #13
wahnfrieden wrote: post #4

There's no real winning these on a point by point basis because the entire system of wage labor is set up to separate you from the value you create for owners as much as the market will bear. Employers agree with this openly every time they talk about how this is a market, though they avoid the charged language and obfuscate it by drawing focus to other ideas. These kind of logical points from employers are not rules…

My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves. Especially in software, a good idea can be converted into a business with minimal friction no matter where you live. America has helped created more Latino millionaires than any other business through McDonald’s franchisi…

You should be able to make a decent income and be treated fairly without having to take the risk and stress of business ownership.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#54

Post by rtlfe »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #51

The cost of living point is very valid. A great salary in Hanoi is most likely to be a very low wage in San Francisco. You can't expect an employer to pay way above the local market rate for a position. Bottom line, they will always find someone to work if they offer a bit above the local market rates. The salary, whatever miles away makes no difference. As far as how to deal with it, look a round you I bet your sala…

> You can't expect an employer to pay way above the local market rate for a position.

This would certainly be true for a business where all the employees and clients are local, but doesn't have to true for a global company with fully remote jobs. If I'm providing as much value as an SF-based employee and demand a raise to 80% of SF pay, the company would be foolish to let me leave.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#55

Post by pyrodactyl »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

Its not a crazy conspiracy, I know it's pretty clear why it's being done. And I know I can't do anything about it other than look for new opportunities.

But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm? There are variables that can't be used to do discriminate like age, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. We've accepted equal pay for equal work in these cases. Is it that far fetched that even location should be treated the same?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#56

Post by pyrodactyl »

soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

Great advice on negotiation. I'll definitely use this going forward. Thank you!

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#57

Post by rtlfe »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement.

That's not necessarily true. Many fully remote companies hire from anywhere and pay location-adjusted wages. So it's a roll of the dice whether the replacement makes more or less than you.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#58

Post by pyrodactyl »

Uptrenda wrote: post #49
soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

Good advice. I do think the arguments these companies use is ridiculous. I think it's possible that these companies are knowingly exploiting OP because he comes from a lower economic background. I say this as an Australian where tech jobs here pay about half or a third as much as a US startup job yet I've never had any startups try offer me an Australian rate. I wonder if there's more to this story? E.g. does OP work…

I work for a software company that's product based BUT I'm not in a software role as some people are assuming

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#59

Post by calculated »

mavelikara wrote: post #48

Does this same logic also apply to the price of goods and services you consume? For example, when you go to a restaurant in your location, do you pay them the same as an equivalent meal would cost in US/UK? The chef there is just as talented as one in the US, and the value of satisfying a human's hunger should be the same irrespective of location.

Difference here is that we live in the digital world where location isn't a constraint to providing services.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#60

Post by soueuls »

The reverse would be unfair as well.

If someone have to live in San Francisco to make 250k/year but pay a high rent etc. And you make 250k/year living in Ho Chi Minh that would be unfair to them. And would be a little bit unfair to your local people, the selected few (employees) able to work remotely would literally make 80x time the local salary.

There is no way to solve this problem, if you want your compensation to be independent from your local area. Become an expert, start being a contractor and cross your fingers.

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