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Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

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Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#51

Post by dotancohen »

kstenerud wrote: post #48

I've had companies try to take my OSS projects. It seems that the smaller the company, the greater the likelihood that they'll try (you can get some real dicks who go on power trips in small companies, whereas larger companies tend to have a bureaucracy tempered by good lawyers and usually cooler heads). The first rule is: Go to a lawyer and discuss such matters with them. Consultations are cheap. Often you can get c…

Caveat: Once the contract has been modified for your specific case, all ambiguous clauses (and there are many that laymen cannot identify as ambiguous) are no longer considered unfavourable towards the employer by default. This is because that one simple change renders the contract as longer being a Standard Form Contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#52

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

The "during work" part is ambiguous. I read this to mean during working hours. The boss seems to be interpreting it as "while employed", so including spare time.

But you don't want to get to the point where legal action is taken to test it.

If you released a competing app to your employer, I'd expect legal action.

I generally refuse to sign contracts that claim ownership over any IP I create out of work (although I would accept it if the IP in question directly relates to my employment).

Even if the company appears to have good will here, you need to be careful. One company I worked at went through a merger. Their lawyers tried to argue that the software I had created in my spare time now belonged to them. The original company would never have done that.

Luckily I had a different contract to the standard one as I had those clauses removed :).

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#53

Post by alpaca128 »

abrookewood wrote: post #17

Playing devils advocate .. what if you created something illegal? Warez site for example. Or a BitTorrent site. Wonder how that would play out in court.

Doesn't even need to be illegal, just really bad for their reputation. There's a reason companies like to plaster everything with "This doesn't necessarily reflect our opinion", here they're doing the exact opposite. Any kind of questionable content in any medium is automatically their IP? Good luck.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#54

Post by atoav »

unwind wrote: post #41
atoav wrote: post #26

I am not from the US so I don't know what kind of dystopian regulations you guys got over there. But: if the company wants the fruit of the work you do outside of paid time, they should pay you 24/7. If they decide that is not worth it, they should not expect to see any of your work. So this might just be a very bad contract..? From the corp perspective I understand they would like to prevent you from creating a prod…

Not to be that guy (er, yes, a little bit) but OP explicitly mentioned being based in Cyprus, which is an island in the eastern Mediterranean Sea and thus not in the US.

Oh no, I overread this, thanks for the hint. I don't know a lot about worker protection laws in Cyprus.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#56

Post by incomingpain »

>I'm living in Cyprus. Does this mean I should be much less afraid of getting sued than if I were in the US?

Many places in the world, the copyright produced goes to the producer and not employer. Hence why these need to exist.

However, this isn't the take you need to be concerned with. If they have this, you know some talented lawyers have been engaged.

You know this employer is litigious, you know they are actively talking to lawyers. Why? Do they have lots of ex-employees they are effectively stealing their project from? Or are they just shitty employers who constantly have legal problems?

Frankly when I see something like this, I would walk calmly in the other direction.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#57

Post by JohnFen »

That's a contractual term that I've seen in 2/3 of such contracts. I consider it unacceptable and negotiate its removal. I've never received much pushback to that.

If they wouldn't remove it, that's a showstopper. It's such a serious thing that I would certainly pass on the job.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#58

Post by JohnFen »

samwillis wrote: post #30

This is one of these grey areas where the clause is in the contract mostly to deter the employee from working in the same industry on the side, poaching clients, or using your position in the company to build a competing business on the side. Assuming you are in tech / software development, that clause suggests you are not aloud, for example, to play in a band that is paid to perform at weddings at the weekend. That…

> This is one of these grey areas where the clause is in the contract mostly to deter the employee from working in the same industry on the side, poaching clients, or using your position in the company to build a competing business on the side.

That's better covered by an actual noncompete agreement than a general "we own anything you do no matter what" clause.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#59

Post by JohnFen »

samwillis wrote: post #39
tarakat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of the contract isn't limited by 'intent'. Relying on what they might have intended, but not written, is legally throwing yourself at their mercy. That is assuming the clause is enforceable in Cyprus, and isn't just legal intimidation.

Exactly, and why talking to an employer is important. IANAL but my understanding is that courts often have to decide what the "intent" of a clause is in a contract - thats what I am referring to, and you don't want to end up in court arguing over "intent".

If it's not in the contract, it doesn't exist.

Re: Ask HN: Should a 'no side projects' policy be taken seriously?

#60

Post by torstenvl »

"Well, about this provision..."

"That's non-negotiable."

"You want to own all of my intellectual property? All of it?"

"Yes."

"Can you explain to me why you want to own nude photos of my wife?"

"What?"

"What are you planning to do with my MBA assignments? Do we need to have a conversation about plagiarism?"

"That's not what I..."

"Okay then. Let me know when you decide what you do mean and we can negotiate about the appropriate language."

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