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Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

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Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#51

Post by tp69 »

woodruffw wrote: post #12

Statistically, the opposite is happening: human knowledge is becoming deeper . The arc of human knowledge throughout history bends towards specialization : never before in human history have so many people been educated in so many different subdomains, each different in methodology, discipline, and scope. This is evinced by rising numbers of postgraduate degrees, increasing diversity in academic specialization, etc.…

Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct.

With specialisation comes interdependence. If you spend 99% of your free time studying computers it is almost certain that you don't know how to grow a potato. You depend on others to do things for you.

Over time specialisation results in critical and basic survival skills being lost from the mainstream.

Usually then, some event occurs that wipes out a critical group of specialists, and everything that depends on them comes crashing down, resulting in the species being wiped out... because the knowledge cannot be rediscovered, or the skills re-learnt, before the food runs out.

We are rushing towards a future where all of our food, water and energy is grown/harvested/generated/distributed by AI-driven machines. The number of people on the planet who will know how those AIs actually work will be minuscule.

Specialists already do things like attend conferences... so gather in a single location... breathe the same air while there... stay at the same hotels... eat at the same restaurants... fly the same planes...

If we care about the long-term survival of the Human species, then we should be very, very careful not to allow over-specialisation to occur in critical fields.

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#52

Post by jlokier »

paulpauper wrote: post #45
woodruffw wrote: post #12

Statistically, the opposite is happening: human knowledge is becoming deeper . The arc of human knowledge throughout history bends towards specialization : never before in human history have so many people been educated in so many different subdomains, each different in methodology, discipline, and scope. This is evinced by rising numbers of postgraduate degrees, increasing diversity in academic specialization, etc.…

Except perhaps theoretical physics and maybe pure math. You have to pretty much know everything of equal depth to make progress in those domains. You cannot specialize, you have to know it all.

I've heard the opposite: Pure math conferences described as places where the attendees struggle to talk in depth about their work with other random attendees, because everyone's working in different, deeply specialised subfields of math.

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#53

Post by woodruffw »

tp69 wrote: post #51
woodruffw wrote: post #12

Statistically, the opposite is happening: human knowledge is becoming deeper . The arc of human knowledge throughout history bends towards specialization : never before in human history have so many people been educated in so many different subdomains, each different in methodology, discipline, and scope. This is evinced by rising numbers of postgraduate degrees, increasing diversity in academic specialization, etc.…

Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct. With specialisation comes interdependence. If you spend 99% of your free time studying computers it is almost certain that you don't know how to grow a potato. You depend on others to do things for you. Over time specialisation results in critical and basic survival skills being lost from the mainstream. Usually then, some e…

I think generalization is very important, but I also think this oversells it slightly: every other species in history has lacked the privilege of writing its progress down. A PhD in farm science doesn't need to know how to grow a potato today, because (in theory) they can open a book and learn how it's done.

My concern about specialization is less that we'll fundamentally lose basic skills, but rather that our academic and cultural trends away from general knowledge are socially harmful and ultimately harmful to specialization itself (which is ultimately a good and necessary aspect of scientific progress).

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#54

Post by drewcoo »

Is the world suffering? Maybe. You'll get a variety of responses and incorrections.

If so, why is the world suffering? You'll get a much wider variety of responses. I doubt many of them will be general shallow thinking, though there will surely be fingers pointed at some people for that crime.

What is shallow knowledge? Who's to determine the correct depth? I hope it doesn't work like Mississippi river boats because Mark Twain is already dead.

Is asking a web forum for an answer to something as important as the world's suffering itself an example of shallow knowledge? Or an attempt to elicit it?

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#55

Post by jlokier »

xwdv wrote: post #15

I think the problem is that the payoff for engaging deeply into a topic often isn’t better than the payoff for engaging in shallow learning of a wide variety of different topics. For example, why would I want to spend time learning deeply how to write my own compiler, vs just spending that time to do tutorials for a couple different new frameworks?

> For example, why would I want to spend time learning deeply how to write my own compiler, vs just spending that time to do tutorials for a couple different new frameworks?

I feel I can answer that easily:

Writing a compiler is vastly more interesting and satisfying!

Learning new frameworks, how boring. I'll do it for pay or prospects.

Writing compilers, now that I'll do for free on the evenings and weekends. You cannot pry my fingers from the keyboard when I'm on a compiler roll! Important household tasks will go neglected! Someone should remind me to eat!

I feel I speak for many here on HN with this sentiment. (See also database engines and distributed systems.)

To put it back on topic: Some things are intrinsically rewarding. It feels good to go deep with them, especially to advance them in some way. That's the payoff. I think this is a significant driving factor in the expansion of human knowledge; it's not just driven by economic incentives to learn things, although economic limitations do prevent people from having capacity to go deep into things they'd like to

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#56

Post by tp69 »

woodruffw wrote: post #53
tp69 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct. With specialisation comes interdependence. If you spend 99% of your free time studying computers it is almost certain that you don't know how to grow a potato. You depend on others to do things for you. Over time specialisation results in critical and basic survival skills being lost from the mainstream. Usually then, some e…

I think generalization is very important, but I also think this oversells it slightly: every other species in history has lacked the privilege of writing its progress down. A PhD in farm science doesn't need to know how to grow a potato today , because (in theory) they can open a book and learn how it's done. My concern about specialization is less that we'll fundamentally lose basic skills, but rather that our acade…

A PhD in farm science with access to a book about growing potatoes will have died of starvation 50-100 days before their first crop is ready to be harvested. It's the lack of time available to actually grow the food that proves terminal. Having access to knowledge is not enough. Being a species that writes stuff down is not, in and of itself, a guarantee of our survival.

If a group of critical specialists gets wiped out there will a) not be enough time to learn how to keep their complex system running, or b) not be enough time to learn and implement a less complex system to the required scale, before the food runs out and everyone dies.

For survival to be assured, there needs to be diversity in critical areas. The alternatives need to be actively studied and practised alongside whatever is dominant. The problem is that competitive economic systems systematically drive out the 'less efficient' approaches, leaving a gaping hole in our fall-back options. Put another way: 'Capitalism eliminates Plan B'.

The prevailing economic system (which rewards and promotes specialisation, homogenisation and efficiency) is incompatible with long-term survival (which depends on generalisation, diversity and inefficiency).

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#57

Post by the_biot »

tp69 wrote: post #51
woodruffw wrote: post #12

Statistically, the opposite is happening: human knowledge is becoming deeper . The arc of human knowledge throughout history bends towards specialization : never before in human history have so many people been educated in so many different subdomains, each different in methodology, discipline, and scope. This is evinced by rising numbers of postgraduate degrees, increasing diversity in academic specialization, etc.…

Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct. With specialisation comes interdependence. If you spend 99% of your free time studying computers it is almost certain that you don't know how to grow a potato. You depend on others to do things for you. Over time specialisation results in critical and basic survival skills being lost from the mainstream. Usually then, some e…

> We are rushing towards a future where all of our food, water and energy is grown/harvested/generated/distributed by AI-driven machines. The number of people on the planet who will know how those AIs actually work will be minuscule.

Horseshit in the press emanating from marketing departments aside, there is no such thing as AI, and nobody has any idea how to make an AI system. Don't believe the hype.

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#58

Post by tintedfireglass »

Teenager here. Not every adult knows anything deep about any topic. only 1% of adults can talk in detail about atleast one topic. It's the same in the next generation too. Not all kids want to learn, but some do. It's just about our outlook towards it

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#59

Post by smt88 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #23
smt88 wrote: post #7

> many young people don't want to spend months pulling their hair off to get a deeper understanding of what they do Every generation says this about the next generation, and yet here we are with scientists in their 30s making huge advancements in things like mRNA vaccines. If you think that laziness (what you're implying this is) will be the end of the world, there are many things that are far more urgent. No high-te…

>and yet here we are with scientists in their 30s making huge advancements in things like mRNA vaccines mrna vaccines are several decades older than the people you are likely thinking of, and by many estimates the return on pharmacological research per dollar invested, as a rough metric of scientific productivity, has slowed by two magnitudes. >No high-tech industry is collapsing because they can't find enough STEM g…

I have multiple friends who went into civil or nuclear engineering, and none of them stayed in public research. They get paid 3x by industry. One of them now builds United's algorithm for flight pricing.

It isn't an issue of laziness or lack of knowledge. We don't treat scientists well, so they leave.

> mrna vaccines are several decades older than the people you are likely thinking of

Old or dead scientists are the basis of all modern science.

The question is whether there are young scientists building on those foundations and making major breakthroughs, and there are[1].

1. https://leaps.org/moderna-covid-vaccine/the-scientist-who-so...

Re: Ask HN: Is the world suffering from shallow knowledge?

#60

Post by bobkazamakis »

tp69 wrote: post #51
woodruffw wrote: post #12

Statistically, the opposite is happening: human knowledge is becoming deeper . The arc of human knowledge throughout history bends towards specialization : never before in human history have so many people been educated in so many different subdomains, each different in methodology, discipline, and scope. This is evinced by rising numbers of postgraduate degrees, increasing diversity in academic specialization, etc.…

Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct. With specialisation comes interdependence. If you spend 99% of your free time studying computers it is almost certain that you don't know how to grow a potato. You depend on others to do things for you. Over time specialisation results in critical and basic survival skills being lost from the mainstream. Usually then, some e…

> Also statistically, every species in history that has ever over-specialised has gone extinct.

Every other species to over-specialize has done it physically, not mentally.

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