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Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

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Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#51

Post by salamandersauce »

the_af wrote: post #9
tluyben2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are color touchscreens (Boox has one, there are phones that have those), but yeah I work in monochrome when there is sun or when I run out of battery; it works very well for me. But obviously YMMV! It beats sitting inside or squinting into my Macbook screen by a large stretch.

What about the refresh/redraw speed? I suppose e-ink has evolved past Kindle Paperwhite standards, because otherwise I can't see how you can use it for coding. Turning a page has a terrible redraw speed, it would drive me mad -- it looks like it was with LCD screens when they were first introduced: terrible. It doesn't matter for reading books, of course.

There are different refresh settings. Its a trade-off between refresh and quality. At the fastest its artifacty but a YouTube video is watchable in real time. Probably 10-15fps. Speed mode is a decent compromise between quality and well speed for typing.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#52

Post by dredmorbius »

culopatin wrote: post #42
hinkley wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One Laptop Per Child had a transflective display, and I wish they'd managed to license that tech to someone else to help fund the project. IIRC, with the backlight on you got full color. With the backlight off you got greyscale.

I always wondered why we couldn’t have either a lens at the top edge of a laptop display, or a translucent case to let the sun shine in behind the screen. Maybe the colors wouldn’t be perfect but you’d get more light behind the screen no?

Find yourself a half-silvered mirror, stick it in bright light, and put another mirror with some kind of diffuser behind it.

What happens is that the light in front of the mirror overwhelms the light coming from behind it. I think you'd pretty much have this problem with any kind of transmissive display, whether it's internally illuminated or relies on transmitted light. Unless you can also shade the front of the display, you'll see little.

Early box cameras, the type that had a drape over the eyepiece or viewplate for the photographer to compose the image, also had this problem.

All of these rely on obscuring some portion of the transmitted light to create a visible pattern. That's always going to be muted by ambient light from the front of the display. It's why we watch films in darkened cinemas but read books (reflective medium) in brightly-lit libraries (or at least with a strong reading lamp nearby). Note that with any LCD-based display, the polarising layer itself blocks ~50% of the transmitted light.

This is why high-ambient-light displays strongly favour reflective media. Ink on paper, paint on canvas, billboards. E-ink happens to be a rapidly-updatable version of this, though not quite as rapid as the electronicly-modulated pixels of an emissive display.

What would be a game-changer would be a material (or suite of materials) which change colour under some rapidly-switchable field (probably electric or magnetic), preferably either on the RBG or CMYK colour space, probably from a white baseline. A response in the 16--120Hz range would be sufficient for video. These would produce the effect of a printed or painted display that could present high-response video and which you'd illuminate from the front rather than back.

Though I think I'm already shuddering to consider the possible applications....

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#53

Post by dredmorbius »

the_af wrote: post #9
tluyben2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are color touchscreens (Boox has one, there are phones that have those), but yeah I work in monochrome when there is sun or when I run out of battery; it works very well for me. But obviously YMMV! It beats sitting inside or squinting into my Macbook screen by a large stretch.

What about the refresh/redraw speed? I suppose e-ink has evolved past Kindle Paperwhite standards, because otherwise I can't see how you can use it for coding. Turning a page has a terrible redraw speed, it would drive me mad -- it looks like it was with LCD screens when they were first introduced: terrible. It doesn't matter for reading books, of course.

On an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi with four refresh rates, "Normal" (highest quality, lowest refresh), "Speed", "A2", "X-Mode", I find "Speed Mode" entirely suitable for terminal-based work (Termux or SSH sessions).

Of course, colour-based syntax highlighting is unavailable, though a colour-eink device should be able to deliver a workable interpretation.

The "Normal Mode" is best suited to paginated books without any animation, and is virtually indistinguishable from printed paper (B&W/greyscale). Animation of any sort results in very annoying screen flash.

The "Speed Mode" effectively halftones images. I find that this often gives better results on photographs or shaded images, which otherwise appear slightly posterised in "Normal" mode. Most website animations are only grossly annoying (as per usual) rather than disrupting the display. (I really wish there were a toggle to disable animations entirely across web browsers.)

"A2" is mostly indistinguishable from "Speed" in my experience, though the refresh is slightly faster / ghosting slightly higher. Use when scrolling rapidly through materials. (Paginated navigation is much preferred for e-ink generally.)

"X Mode" is really only suitable for video. I actually watch many of those in "A-2", though in truth, this is more an "it's amazing it can be done" than "it works well". Yes, you can get a general impression of a video, but it's not a high-fidelity experience. That said, I don't watch much video in general.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#54

Post by dredmorbius »

rchaud wrote: post #32

I have an E-ink tablet, Boox Note Air. Some thoughts: - Screen must be backlit. E-ink screens look great in perfect sunlight and fluorescent lights , but if you're used to a phone/tablet, you'd be surprised how dim e-ink can look just sitting on a couch in the evening, with a lamp a few meters away. Backlighting fixes that. - Web browsing on e-ink is not bad at all if you stick to text-heavy stuff. The low refresh ra…

An attached book light might also be an option. Some devices reMarkable don't have a frontlight.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#55

Post by dredmorbius »

ainar-g wrote: post #12

Alec of the YouTube channel Technology Connections has a video[1] about his experience with an E-Ink device on his second channel. He wanted to see if this would improve his productivity, so it's not exactly the same as your question, but it's still worth a watch, imho. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NfX0vlCa4k

Watching that now.

Alec is describing the earlier version of the Onyx BOOX Lumi, I've got the next-generation version (Max Lumi), and there's since been an update to that.

Some of the issues (display mode toggling, manual display refresh) are addressed, some remain. The "Navigation Ball" seems to be a new feature of my device not present in Alec's walkthrough, and puts numerous controls closer-to-hand. In particular there's an ability to tune contrast and display modes for each individual application (for most, "Speed" or "A2" mode is preferable to "Normal"). I get used to switching these for specific tasks / reasons (that is, within the same app). It's a quirk of the device.

Otherwise, quite a useful walkthrough, and fair as to device features and faults.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#56

Post by diggernet »

mdp2021 wrote: post #46
nraynaud wrote: post #17

I really would like that for the map on my bike.

You really want colour for maps. I have been there (GPS on E-Ink). Try a Kaleido E-Ink EPD display.

I use a Pocketbook InkPad Color for USGS topo maps. They look pretty nice. Zooming is slow, because they are extremely complex vector PDFs on a low power device. I should probably try converting them to images to work around that problem. The screen is actually surprisingly tolerable for photos, too.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#57

Post by mdp2021 »

diggernet wrote: post #56
mdp2021 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really want colour for maps. I have been there (GPS on E-Ink). Try a Kaleido E-Ink EPD display.

I use a Pocketbook InkPad Color for USGS topo maps. They look pretty nice. Zooming is slow, because they are extremely complex vector PDFs on a low power device. I should probably try converting them to images to work around that problem. The screen is actually surprisingly tolerable for photos, too.

Surely you should use bitmap tiles; you can either use a network server for unplanned locations or download tiles beforehand for planned ones. Orux Maps offers the option.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#59

Post by HotPopTart »

Sosh101 wrote: post #11

I don't see the attraction of the Mudita Pure (other than a very nice aesthetic). It just seems like a (hugely) overpriced Nokia feature phone.

Hmmm. I'm also looking at it as a way of supporting a startup that's trying to do something different. I'm annoyed with BIG TECH at the moment.

Re: Ask HN: Why E-Ink Phones?

#60

Post by rchaud »

thylacine222 wrote: post #36
rchaud wrote: post #32

I have an E-ink tablet, Boox Note Air. Some thoughts: - Screen must be backlit. E-ink screens look great in perfect sunlight and fluorescent lights , but if you're used to a phone/tablet, you'd be surprised how dim e-ink can look just sitting on a couch in the evening, with a lamp a few meters away. Backlighting fixes that. - Web browsing on e-ink is not bad at all if you stick to text-heavy stuff. The low refresh ra…

e-ink devices generally using frontlighting, not backlighting, which is way better on your eyes.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it is a front light.
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