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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#51
Technical recruiter here.

For okay-paid fulltime roles, you won't never attract people who are after the money. These people will always prefer juicy contracting rates to your small company salary.

You have to try to find people who care less about money and more about other perks like remote work, interesting tasks, a strong technical team, meaningful mission etc.

In Switzerland, which is my market, freelancers aren't liked at all. Someone who freelanced for too long will have a hard time getting a full-time job; people think former freelancers won't ever be loyal and leave once there is a better opportunity. (As with every prejudice, there is some truth to that.)

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#52
post #33

I'm a senior eng out of work for a year (per my own choice) slowly looking to get back into the market. These points are my own: - My managers have always been a point of friction. If you hire an expert, stop telling them what they do and don't know. I'm afraid of full time work because of incompetent managers or tech leads. - I don't care if your company is a unicorn. I care that I'm going to be happy doing the work…

You’re shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring companies that take pride in offering an agile development environment.

There are, sure, places that have control-through-forced-scrum as their management philosophy who will call themselves ‘agile’; but there are also places that practice exactly what you’re looking for: getting out of the way of tech practitioners, giving them direct access to stakeholders to decide how and what to work on, trusting teams to self-organize; and those companies are going to say they are agile too.

Consider the alternative: a company whose ad says “we don’t follow any agile practices” - what would you interpret that to mean? That they just let you get on with things your way, or that they are stuck in their requirement-gathering change-control-document waterfall ways?

You can choose to interpret anything a job ad says cynically.

Just like any company’s claim in a job ad it needs to be evaluated.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#53

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

Funny - I’m the opposite. I’d much rather make my great rate doing indie work and helping lots of people versus being stuck in one role with a fixed salary and limited mobility.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#54

What I don't get is why are the rates so different? Arguments like: uncertainty, getting clients is hard, certain overhead isn't paid, not always having work are all valid reasons. However, they don't seem to make sense for such a big difference. Based on those reasons, I'd suspect a 1.5x difference to be more reasonable, but in most cases it's like 2x to 4x.

The demand side is a factor too. Some companies seem to place a premium on being able to flex numbers of contract staff rather than adding and removing numbers of permanent employees. Maybe for morale?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#55

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work.

The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year.

Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summer off to live on your accumulated war chest and chill out, it's amazing.

Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting, rather than stagnating at the same desk for years on end.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#56

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

Contract is a instant no for me. I've done the math and haven't found them to be competitive long term after what the above commenter mentioned (and that's before all the headaches of actually getting paid). Most of my peers feel the same way.

Which country?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#57
post #39

Start by not calling them Snr Engs. That makes it sound like you don't value them and view them as a comodity that you can't be arsed to write out completely. Not to mention, it won't come up in a search when active, motivated candidates are looking for new opportunities. This is not just a nitpick. If someone emailed me looking for a "Snr Eng", the email is getting deleted and flagged as spam.

Can you expand on this advice a bit as it is confusing? I was under the impression that Junior and Senior Engineer was pretty ubiquities terminology for the industry.

Sure, if you want to hire a Senior Engineer, write "Senior Engineer", don't abbreviate it as "Snr Eng", because that will raise red flags for any senior engineer. Most of us get hundreds of messages a month from recruiters on LinkedIn, and we're quickly filtering out the ones that look like a lazy recruiter just spamming people.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#58
I switched from consulting to a company. In short contracting is a headache if what you care about is doing good tech work.

Rates in the contract world represent a lot of overhead and headaches you experience there:

1. Payment risk: chances someone doesn’t pay you is surprisingly high. A lot of time is just spent chasing down your money.

2. Poor payment terms: being able to bill after 30 days of work is actually seen as generous. More and more you see 45, 60 or even 90 day terms. And clients are always playing dumb cash flow games

3. Invoicing and tracking time is not fun: There’s a lot of overhead following some clients invoicing rules and time tracking. Then you can get questioned non stop about why you spent hours on this or that.

4. Employer tax: in the US if you’re self employed you pay the employers share of Medicare and social security.

5. Health insurance: in the US you need to purchase your own private health care. This can be quite a lot if you have a family. I know outside the US, in some places, private health insurance can also be needed for other reasons.

6. Sales and marketing overhead: the work to attract clients and close deals is pretty substantial and out of your pocket.

7. Relationship work: you are always paranoid about the relationship with the client. You’re first to go if money gets tight for them. And often clients don’t communicate their grievances with vendors, they just fire them. The trust building to get good feedback is very substantial.

8. Project management: in my experience clients aren’t good at managing contractors work. You have to take a bunch of this work on yourself to help organize the work and show transparently what’s getting done. If you have any subcontractors or work on a larger team, this gets substantial and clients don’t always understand why you bill for it (though we always did).

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#59
post #55

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year. Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summe…

Asking a contractor if they like doing contract work is a bit like asking someone at McDonald's if they like hamburgers. The answer is pretty likely to be "yes".

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract is a instant no for me. I've done the math and haven't found them to be competitive long term after what the above commenter mentioned (and that's before all the headaches of actually getting paid). Most of my peers feel the same way.

I contracted for 10 years, then switched to a full-time job at a unicorn. Salary-wise, I calculated my yearly netto for the last contracting year, and submitted it to the HR as the netto salary I want to have. They approved in a blink of an eye. The main problem with contracting is lack of career path and random, not very interesting projects where the contractor has little say. The downside of employee life is non-t…

What is personality training?
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