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Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#51

Post by Micoloth »

muzani wrote: post #28
labcomputer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traffic and commuting is one of the worst little things of daily life. It's dangerous. It ruins the environment. Parking sucks. I agree, but commuting has significant mental-health benefits. It provides a clear mental separation between "work" and "home". I and several of my coworkers have noticed that we never feel "off work" anymore. Work just bleeds into everything because there isn't that 30 minute period (enfo…

That's true, which is why I think there's a middle ground. A total 10-30 minutes daily commuting is nice and better than 0. I saw statistics once that said the average one way is 40 minutes, which is dangerous and tiring.

I agree, exacyly. Unfortunately, having such an ideal commute is basically impossible for most people, who are left with the other two options, both of them worse. Alternate between commute and wfh is better but just not as good.

I really feel like an ideal commute is one of the ultimate luxuries, given how much impact it has on daily life. Even better than 20 mins by car is 20 mins by bike/ on foot.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#52

Post by lostdog »

muzani wrote: post #40
T-A wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few seconds of googling yield, among other nuggets of wisdom: January 2019: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/325959 January 2019: https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/01/jobs-workplace-priv... February 2019: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/327142 November 2019: https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices August 2020: https://www.businessinsider.com/open-offices-over-due-to-cor...

I don't mean open offices. They're even more crowded than cubicles. I mean the classic ones where you have walls, a door, your own desk, a few feet from your desk to your door, a bunch of bookshelves, a few monitors, a window, and nobody enters your office unless it's important.

I also thought your original post was advocating for open offices.

Still, I'm more productive in a cramped room with a door that closes than in an open offices, and I'm sure many others are too.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#53

Post by b_t_s »

labcomputer wrote: post #16
muzani wrote: post #6

Let's address the elephant in the room: Working from home is a lot less efficient than an ideal office. It's harder to debug things or pair program when needed, it's harder to grab someone's attention, it's easier to miscommunicate, and communication is a lot slower. You also don't get the same camaraderie as you would face to face, but the upside is that you also don't get distracted by attractive coworkers. However…

> Traffic and commuting is one of the worst little things of daily life. It's dangerous. It ruins the environment. Parking sucks. I agree, but commuting has significant mental-health benefits. It provides a clear mental separation between "work" and "home". I and several of my coworkers have noticed that we never feel "off work" anymore. Work just bleeds into everything because there isn't that 30 minute period (enfo…

> commuting has significant mental-health benefits.

My experience has been the exact opposite. I've been fortunate to have very reasonable commutes in all my jobs, but WFH is much better than my 25-30 minute commutes. I no longer get the "it's 5:50PM but can you take a quick look at this because you're the only one still here" issues that had me commuting home at 7 or 8 pm every few weeks. And then there's the 20 hours a week of time I get to play with my kid, do chores, or relax. Sure I still get the occasional slack message mid evening, but that was happening before WFH as well. There are downsides around ease of communication and sense of camaraderie, but work life balance/separation has been pretty much 100% win.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#54

Post by dragonsngoblins »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #13

I'm still working in the office, so yes. Even though remote work has been a possibility for IT for a long time, various factors have prevented it from being taken up as the norm. I don't believe those factors have changed in any permanent way. I would happily take a pay cut to work from home, and I'd even happily take a 50% pay cut to cut my hours by 50%, and I'd like a pony...

I wish so much I could work less days even if I was getting paid less, but nobody wants someone not doing 5 days it seems like.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#55

Post by green-bottle »

b_t_s wrote: post #53
labcomputer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traffic and commuting is one of the worst little things of daily life. It's dangerous. It ruins the environment. Parking sucks. I agree, but commuting has significant mental-health benefits. It provides a clear mental separation between "work" and "home". I and several of my coworkers have noticed that we never feel "off work" anymore. Work just bleeds into everything because there isn't that 30 minute period (enfo…

> commuting has significant mental-health benefits. My experience has been the exact opposite. I've been fortunate to have very reasonable commutes in all my jobs, but WFH is much better than my 25-30 minute commutes. I no longer get the "it's 5:50PM but can you take a quick look at this because you're the only one still here" issues that had me commuting home at 7 or 8 pm every few weeks. And then there's the 20 hou…

I have noticed a tendency among people to rationalise things that suck in life to actually be good for you. Phrases such as "It builds character" or "It is necessary for the society/people/..." are not too uncommon.

It seems to be a universal characteristic of people to co-opt largely harmful activities such as smoking for useful things such as social interaction or relaxation.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#56

Post by kojeovo »

labcomputer wrote: post #46
freeone3000 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just... Make one. You can just make the division. You can turn off the work computer and walk away at five.

Not the same thing. You're still in the same physical space. Again, that time on the bike/train/car provides head space to mentally context switch away from work time and into home time. Plus, it's very easy to do "just one more" commit while you're boiling pasta for dinner.

Have you tried going for a 20 min walk or something like that after work? I have a dog so I find that taking him out after helps with this.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#57

Post by b_t_s »

labcomputer wrote: post #46
freeone3000 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just... Make one. You can just make the division. You can turn off the work computer and walk away at five.

Not the same thing. You're still in the same physical space. Again, that time on the bike/train/car provides head space to mentally context switch away from work time and into home time. Plus, it's very easy to do "just one more" commit while you're boiling pasta for dinner.

This is not a need that all of of us have. Nor is a commute an effective way for all of us to disconnect from work. It very much depends on both the person and workplace in question. Where it apparently is a serious need for you, I'd second some of the other suggestions on finding your own replacement, maybe something along the lines of set an alarm for end of day, turn everything off, and get out of the house and walk/bike.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#58

Post by kingkongjaffa »

labcomputer wrote: post #16
muzani wrote: post #6

Let's address the elephant in the room: Working from home is a lot less efficient than an ideal office. It's harder to debug things or pair program when needed, it's harder to grab someone's attention, it's easier to miscommunicate, and communication is a lot slower. You also don't get the same camaraderie as you would face to face, but the upside is that you also don't get distracted by attractive coworkers. However…

> Traffic and commuting is one of the worst little things of daily life. It's dangerous. It ruins the environment. Parking sucks. I agree, but commuting has significant mental-health benefits. It provides a clear mental separation between "work" and "home". I and several of my coworkers have noticed that we never feel "off work" anymore. Work just bleeds into everything because there isn't that 30 minute period (enfo…

This is a truly, truly terrible take. I work 100% remote and I've never been happier. Our culture is fantastic and we are encouraged to log out at our EOD working hours.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#59

Post by _ah »

1. Individual Contributors are more effective at home without distractions.

2. Managers are more effective at the office where they can talk to people and discover information: "manage by walking around".

3. Why are managers / executives necessary and often paid more? Because their contribution affects the work of many other people. Managers' work operates with leverage (for good or ill).

4. If offices make managers more effective, and managers leverage their effectiveness over a large number of people, then the greatest good for the company is likely to be a return to in-person working environments.

It may take a while, but most of us will be going back.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#60

Post by president »

Some annoyances I have found from working from home:

1. Lots of people have horrible internet connections making communication a frustrating experience. 2. Hard to get attention of colleagues when they don't respond on Slack. It was already hard enough in the office but at least you could physically walk into somebody's cube before. 3. Not everyone has the amenities of air conditioning or heating.

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