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Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#51
post #40

The Linux kernel and most other open source projects have primarily been built by fully remote teams. But every few days there’s a thread full of people wringing their hands about how there’s no way to do spontaneous, creative, collaborative work remotely.

Speaking of this, studies of open source projects have also shown that the primary barrier to communication is organisational distance (i.e. how far up the chain of command you have to go until you have a manager in common) and not physical distance.

(Personal hypothesis: this is probably more of an issue with the type of organisation that values a hierarchical departmental layout inspired by the industrial revolution, instead of smaller Toyota production system-style teams.)

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#52
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say is true, but I think there's often a detail missing from these conversations: culture. What I mean is that OP's question and your answer both have a context which isn't always explicit in these conversations. The Linux kernel development, and I would argue most successful remote shops, have had a "remote first" culture from the beginning, or, if remote was something that came up later, have had a change…

In your example company, I think remote work may have been the catalyst for the change you’re talking about in the specific case. But what if they’d introduced some other small change that had nothing to do with remote work like moving the conference rooms to the other side of the building so that people not in a conference couldn’t easily tell there was a meeting going on. Each time the environment changes, new buil…

In my example I wasn't talking about formal meetings in conference rooms, but exchanges between people in the same office space. There's always a tendency for people to ask what's been decided in the meeting right after it ends when they weren't present. This could be reproduced in a remote environment. Indeed, I think the minutes from the meeting should be published, even in an in-person office.

> Culture has to adapt to the environment. There’s nothing special about it being remote.

I totally agree with you. The only issue is that this adaptation may take some time. In my client's example, this was considered a temporary thing. Most people were switched to part-time, etc. I think they merely considered the remote thing as a bump in the road, and this situation may be pretty common among companies affected by shelter in place directives.

I think people may be surprised by the sudden change, and they are looking for ways to adapt. In the beginning, they will try to reproduce what they were doing before, which, of course, may not work as well. Which contributes to their frustration. I don't think that if they were forced to stay remote for a long time (some six months to a year at least) they would continue trying to fit the square peg in a hole that's become round. Maybe some would, but I'm hopeful that a sufficient number of people would try to adapt so as the change the surrounding culture.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't ... maybe you meant this as a joke?

I have been a professional developer for 20 years, 10 of those remote. He is right. If people learn how to work and communicate through async text, you can come up with ideas, exchange thoughts quite easily. Problem is, most people love to hear themselves talk so dismiss ways where they aren't the 'center of attention'. I would say in 20 years, less than 5% of the 'meetings' or 'coffee chats' couldn't have been done…

Async is the keyword here. Have several text channels, some with a specific topic, some more random. Get people used to posting in them and reading them once in a while. Get people used to move to one on ones and/or ad hoc small group chats when they have something to say.

Yeah, just like irc. What do you think Slack is modeled on?

And just to make myself more hated, cut the scheduled meetings down. If everyone is spamming status in #general (or #status or whatever) you don't really need them.

Oh and, like the parent poster, been doing this for at least 15 out of the last 20 years.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#54

I do remote gamedev with an artist friend. This type of conversation really only happens during long calls. Usually I'd call to discuss a problem and when that's done, we usually stick around some more to chat about random stuff, bounce jokes around until we somehow stumble upon cool ideas. I think what makes it work is that since we just finished straining our brains to solve a problem, the relaxed post-discussion t…

Exactly this. You can not "force" these sessions, they happen to happen, or not. It takes (a lot of open mic) time to get these things rolling.

It is a number game: more contact, more bouncing.

For about 5 years I ran a worldwide (FPS) tournament with a couple of friends. We never met AFK. It had to work online, or it would not work at all.

This is one reason I always ask potential employees if they encage in online communities. I find it a tremendous plus if people are able to collaborate with "strangers" and without financial dependencies.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#55
We are a fairly small team but yeah we still have those sorts of conversations.

On a Tuesday morning we have a get together for the whole team, we have a chat about the current issues we're having and what we've been working on. Normally goes on for about 90 minutes and this seems to keep us generally on the same page. This is our only real 'scheduled' meeting, other ad-hoc ones can happen but its not all that often.

Beyond that we rely on slack. We have a channel for things we want to celebrate, where we can all share on the wins. We also have department specific channels for general updates on things others should probably know for that topic. Sales, Marketing, Engineering, etc. We try to keep the general chit chat out of those so there isnt too much noise. If something goes back and forth a bunch of times we just start a zoom chat and people who want to jump in will do.

Then we have the smaller group DMs that are just the people we'd normally chit chat with as the day goes on. As long as you get your notifications set right so its not bing bong-ing all day then it can be nice to chat sh*t with each other sporadically throughout the day.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#56
1. No, I don't miss them. Quite the opposite: Having to handle people who constantly felt the need to provide "feedback" and "input" used to be a big distraction, which is now more manageable due to the slightly higher threshold for initiating communication. The ones who seem to miss these "spontaneous conversations" the most is management, who seem to have been told that we should be made to have them. As for the more enjoyable conversations, they may be less spontaneous now, but remote collaboration tools ensure that they're still possible.

At the office, we usually had such spontaneous conversations around lunchtime, and they were sometimes work-related and sometimes not.

2. From time to time. When I want to talk to someone, I use one of our remote communication tools to have a text chat with them. Some prefer to use a voice chat or telephone call instead. Either way works fine.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#57

No. We tried having daily "tea break" calls and weekly "Friday drinks" calls, but attendance was so low that we just cancelled them. Amongst people who were already friendly we still have private group chats in our work Slack, but the number of conversations is obviously far lower than when you're all in the kitchen making breakfast or tea in the morning. We had a conversation about why the daily and weekly open conv…

I have noticed that the “unstructured conversation” calls are super awkward and stall out after a few minutes, but playing online party games together (Among Us, Codenames, Skribbl, etc) has been a stronger background on which we have actually conversations.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#58

Interestingly enough, I find were having more of these conversations working remotely than we did in the office. I think part of it is that using MS Teams other people are a lot more accessible, just drop into the chat and leave a message. If they are busy no probs, if they aren't then they will reply and we talk about whatever. Sick of typing, drop into a voice or video chat. Want to talk work, then it's easy to sha…

I hope the “social side” of working remotely is kept to a minimum. Work socialization in the office led to some rich real-world friendships, but if the endgame of getting to know someone on a video call is just to have more video calls... gross. Remote meetings are such revolting experiences, it’s important that they be used as rarely as possible and with ironclad justification of business necessity for every second they drag on.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#59
post #35

No. We tried having daily "tea break" calls and weekly "Friday drinks" calls, but attendance was so low that we just cancelled them. Amongst people who were already friendly we still have private group chats in our work Slack, but the number of conversations is obviously far lower than when you're all in the kitchen making breakfast or tea in the morning. We had a conversation about why the daily and weekly open conv…

Same. I've worked at my current company over five years and have been a really strong IC. I used to talk to lots of people in the office from many various teams and backgrounds. Now I only talk to my lead and a handful of others. Work drags on every day and feels inhuman. It never "ends" now. I don't find any joy or satisfaction in it. I hate this, and I don't know how much longer I can put up with it. I don't even u…

I've been working remotely for 13 years now. I do have a desk at the office, although I rarely go in. The only thing I miss is seeing some of the great people every day. Prior to the pandemic, many of us still talked remotely every day. But, that rarely happens now. More on that in a moment.

The worst thing about WFH during a pandemic is that one of the major things that kept me sane for the past 13 years was being able to go work at a local coffee shop or co-working space when I needed to get out of the house -- but none of those places have tables right now so that's off the table (sorry). On a side note, my kids and wife are around the house all day now, which should be from a social standpoint, and it is to a point, but it's terrible for concentration and it's a little too much time together when everyone tries to maintain their pre-pandemic expectations (hard for kids not to).

I'm not complaining though, my point is simply that WFH isn't normally this bad and cannot be judged fairly during a pandemic. I used to start working when I woke up very early in the morning and stop working around 330pm. Now, between helping my kids with their School from home work, and other family related interruptions, the workday never ends.

Many of my coworkers are in the same boat. Those who don't have kids are still anxious because their wonderful life is mostly shutdown too. Everyone is more stressed, more anxious, more irritable, and these feelings are the opposite of what WFH normally feels like.

Re: Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?

#60
Most of the good spontaneous conversations I've had at work were previously on Slack anyway, for a couple of reasons:

- You're not interrupting someone / taking up their whole time. If you have a thought, they can wait until they're free to reply, and if you're both free at the same time you can have a good conversation. But you were still able to write out and communicate the thought.

- More people can join and provide input. I can always talk about things with a couple folks on my team, but it's super valuable to have someone from another part of the company pipe up and say "Hey, what about this" without having to consciously think of inviting them (and interrupting them, see the above point - the way to do this in person is to have extremely large "user group" meetings that are low value for their opportunity cost for most of the attendees).

- I can easily find people in other parts of the company / work across teams because teams tend to be in physically separate locations. It's super easy for me to run something past someone who works in the other building; it would take about 10 minutes of my time total to go there and back, and then I'd have to hope they're at their desk.

- This is something of a mixed blessing, but conversations are logged, so you can reference them later. To the example you give about chatting about things after a conference, I tend to write up what I've learned or ideas I've followed on and put them into Slack pretty quickly, with the expectation that we'll have a conversation about them at some later point but not immediately.

What I've been trying to do is to expand all of this and drive even more conversations to Slack. (To be clear: have the conversations in existing public channels, not in DMs, and avoid tagging people in. Also, do not expect people to read any particular conversation. Slack has a pretty good search feature, so if they ask about something later, link them to the previous discussion. I'm not at all advocating that you take up people's time with pings on Slack.) We do also have occasional video calls for higher-bandwidth conversations, but I've found they work best when they're structured as accelerators to an async written conversation and not as discussion forums in their own right.

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