Encryption is math. Can we really make a form of math illegal? I feel privacy is a basic human right regardless of what country you live in. I’m not fan of punishing the majority because of a screwed up minority. People who commit illegal acts as horrible as child abuse and terrorism are not going to respect the law when it comes to encryption. Again, you can’t stop people from doing math. The idea of making it illeg…
Yes, and the silly people are often in power. "Well the laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/14/forcing-f...
Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
51–60 of 255 posts
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#52Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#53What are your arguments in favor of knives? How do you respond when someone brings up concerns of knives being used to stab people?
I was literally sat in a Crown Court on Wednesday for a trial where two guys were on trial for knives and GBH. Cops chased one and he had a blade in his back pocket when they caught him. Why? Well based on the call to the police and the witness evidence I expect if I'd spent a couple more days in court the story would be that he'd just stabbed somebody and so that's why - but even if he'd been caught on his way to stab somebody and never got there it's the same story. Nobody who'd come to play PS4 needed a knife. Nobody who'd come to play hide the sausage, or watch TV, or just sit around and get drunk needed a knife. They had knives so they could "defend themselves" when shit kicks off, which is why shit kicks off, which is why we have a law so they get locked up before they kill each other. Among the witnesses I didn't miss (because they refused to say anything) were the stabbing victims. Code of the streets see, it's OK to try to murder one another, but you mustn't tell the cops anything, this massive slit in my stomach must have been from being clumsy with nail scissors. (The medics unsurprisingly take the view that wounds are instead consistent with getting stabbed by somebody with a bladed weapon...)
The calculus for knives probably looks pretty different if the majority of nearby large mammals are Starbucks employees versus if they're Grizzly bears, or indeed Sheep, and so I don't pretend to think these laws make sense everywhere.
But the calculus for encryption is the same everywhere. We definitely don't want most people to be able to attack this stuff. But it turns out "Not most people" wasn't on the menu. "Nobody" and "Basically any motivated bad guy" are our available options, so let's pick "Nobody" and deal with the social consequences of that.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#54> how do you respond when someone brings up concerns of E2EE platforms being used for child sexual abuse imagery or terrorism? These are only a tiny part of uses of encryption. Ask anyone if he would like to have his bank transfers, or his credit card credentials in plain text. End to end encryption allows the whole internet to act as a commerce platform. Encryption allows journalists and activists in strict, control…
You are confusing E2EE encryption with encryption in transit/rest in the commerce example. The majority of transactions today are encrypted in transit and (you would hope) encrypted at rest so that the bank and selected parties can access the data (including the customer). There is no bank that would encrypt financial data using E2EE so that only the customer and merchant could access it, which is the analogy here on…
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#55Counterpoints:
- Do we currently have a big door problem?
- Wait, don't doors also serve an important function?
- Won't that make everybody much more insecure and basically do nothing against "bad stuff"?
- What if I put a wooden plank in front of the hole in my building? Wouldn't that be a "door"? Making doors illegal is not going to stop people from making "doors".
Now, people like to spin this analogy further and revise their proposal and say "Fine, keep your doors, but I get a spare key for every door made".
Problems with this:
- Yes, you and everyone in your office can grab the spare key and steal all my stuff (see TSA locks and basically any time in history that was tried).
- Remember the wooden plank above? That guy will not give you a spare key and can still hide "bad stuff".
- Fine, we will just use magical (blockchain) keys that nobody can steal and not make things insecure, but have an officer visit and inspect every room you have every 5 minutes. You have nothing to hide, do you?
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
I see these comparisons made so, so frequently and it bothers me. Guns are not the same as encryption or cars. Yet they're so often made in apples to apples comparisons that it's mind boggling to me. Weapons are uniquely special in that they are specifically designed to maim and kill. Via defense or justified actions is irrelevant; it's a tool of war. Arguably, if there was E2E software that was specifically designed…
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#57Anything these people think of as "normal" activities has at one point or another been made illegal by a government, but without 1. Knowledge of specific cases 2. An emotional connection to those who suffered / are suffering and 3. A willingness to go beyond the fantasy of perpetual personal exceptionalism there can be no appreciation of the value of privacy over law, or privacy weighed against inevitable concomitant harms.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#58So my argument is: because it's a war that can't be won. The criminals will use secure communication regardless. All we can do is decide on whether we also want to make everyone elses communicastion insecure.
Law enforcement simply have to adjust to a reality where eavesdropping on communication is difficult or impossible.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#59Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#60> how do you respond when someone brings up concerns of E2EE platforms being used for child sexual abuse imagery or terrorism? These are only a tiny part of uses of encryption. Ask anyone if he would like to have his bank transfers, or his credit card credentials in plain text. End to end encryption allows the whole internet to act as a commerce platform. Encryption allows journalists and activists in strict, control…
You are confusing E2EE encryption with encryption in transit/rest in the commerce example. The majority of transactions today are encrypted in transit and (you would hope) encrypted at rest so that the bank and selected parties can access the data (including the customer). There is no bank that would encrypt financial data using E2EE so that only the customer and merchant could access it, which is the analogy here on…
I think he meant to do that. E2EE between two people has the same kind of requirements as E2EE between a person and a server. If you're trying to say point-to-point encryption, where the server is just a relay between the points, and it handles the data unencrypted, then I think all the arguments for E2EE apply here as well.