Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#51

Post by tonyarkles » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

asdkfjasl wrote: post #41

pmyteh wrote: post #7

I've mostly worked in public-sector bureaucracies, not software companies, so my experiences won't line up exactly. In each case, the rule has been strictly pro-rata. I've generally felt that the company has had the good end of that deal, especially for the higher fractions (0.6/0.8 of full time): productivity seems to me to be non-linear, and trading off the end-of-the-week burnout for a little more payroll admin an…

I mostly agree, although it's worth noting that there are probably some fixed overheads of being employed that eat up some of the otherwise expected benefits. Let's consider a scenario where there are 4h average fixed overhead for working at a company. Now let's run the 0.6 time vs. 1.0 time scenarios. 1.0 time. 40h - 4h overhead = 36h. Pay = 1. Work-to-pay ratio is 36h:1p. 0.6 time. 24h - 4h overhead = 20h. Pay = 0.…

> The corollary of this is that you'd really better make sure you have little fixed overhead time for your workers if they are working fractional time.

That was one of the big things that me working part-time on a team helped with: they significantly cut down on the mandatory meeting overhead; early on a significant fraction of my time (40%?) was spent in meetings. We cut that down and everyone on the team benefited.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#52

Post by matthewmacleod » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

purrcat259 wrote: post #26

matthewmacleod wrote: post #16

I would advise you to just make it pro-rata. Don't fiddle around and worry about the relative pocket-change of overheads. You will save yourself lots of headaches, and my experience is that you will get more value out of two employees working 20 hours a week than you will out of one employee working 40 hours. It all evens out in the end. Aside: I really want to encourage you to do this. In my previous job, I went to…

Hey, I have a few questions if you don't mind I am working 30 hour work week. I recently switched jobs and I consider myself a strong candidate. In nearly all of my interviews, as soon as I mentioned wishing to work 30 hours (because I want to have time to sharpen my skills in my other 10 hours, which I always sold as a positive feedback loop which helps me be more knowlegable at work), the HR admin/recruiter would g…

At a guess, I'd say that it's just anything out of the ordinary scares people a bit!

Taking someone on part-time for a traditionally full-time role maybe does involve some additional trust. Maybe a more sustainable approach would be to start full-time, and look at moving to a part-time situation after settling in?

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#53

Post by pmyteh » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

kova12 wrote: post #50

pmyteh wrote: post #7

I've mostly worked in public-sector bureaucracies, not software companies, so my experiences won't line up exactly. In each case, the rule has been strictly pro-rata. I've generally felt that the company has had the good end of that deal, especially for the higher fractions (0.6/0.8 of full time): productivity seems to me to be non-linear, and trading off the end-of-the-week burnout for a little more payroll admin an…

Not familiar with UK employment practices, but: do the businesses pay any benefits to part-time employees?

Benefits are a much smaller part of the package. Health coverage, for example, is nationally provided. For most of my employers, the main benefits would be vacation (which would be pro-rata), pension (ditto), and sick leave (effectively ditto, as it pays out based on actual salary). There are some much smaller fringe benefits (gym discounts, say) which would be given regardless of hours worked, but I'm not sure that would make a material difference.

For high-end jobs you might get private health coverage (or, under earlier tax regimes, a company car). I'm not sure how they are normally handled.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#54

Post by ghaff » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #47

ghaff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that's pretty common. Old-line companies (including in tech) often still have the sick-time/vacation distinction but my impression is that it's relatively uncommon in newer companies. It has to some degree been replaced with "unlimited" vacation but that comes with its own set of issues.

What issues does that come with, in your opinion?

There isn't a defined number of days that you're "entitled" to. Not that the entitlement is always taken or that people always feel comfortable taking it, but at least it's there. (And, personally, I've essentially always taken my earned vacation.)

I don't necessarily have a problem with unlimited/unmetered vacation. It means you don't get a payout if you leave a company but I don't really have a problem with that. However, I do think it puts the onus on management to set clear and reasonable expectations around vacation--which hopefully are what I would consider reasonable.

If I were to entertain an offer with an unlimited vacation company, I would expect HR or the hiring manager to be able to answer the question: "Is 4-6 weeks of vacation considered reasonable?"

ADDED: I'm not complaining about downvotes but I'm genuinely curious what someone finds objectionable or controversial about this comment.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#55

Post by thrax » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

pmyteh wrote: post #22

AdrianB1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a sex discrimination if you offer different conditions based on sex, not on hours worked. If part time workers have the same offer no matter the sex, then it is quite bizarre to build a sex discrimination case.

In Britain, it's definitely something you need to watch out for. > indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage (from https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/how-you-can-be... ). There have definitely been cases around aspects of part-time working which have been held to be indirect discrim…

That's fucking awesome. America sucks.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#56

Post by asavadatti » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

warp wrote: post #40

purrcat259 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I have a few questions if you don't mind I am working 30 hour work week. I recently switched jobs and I consider myself a strong candidate. In nearly all of my interviews, as soon as I mentioned wishing to work 30 hours (because I want to have time to sharpen my skills in my other 10 hours, which I always sold as a positive feedback loop which helps me be more knowlegable at work), the HR admin/recruiter would g…

Why 30?, that just seems like a strange number. Assuming 8 hour work days, 32 seems a more obvious choice. You get 1 day/week off. I've always started at 40, then negotiated down to 36, then to 32 at the same salary whenever offered a raise. If you're having a hard time finding a job, maybe tough it out for a year then negotiate for less hours when you've proven yourself. Obviously helps to be working for smaller com…

Makes sense to me. 30hrs/week is 6 hours everyday for 5 days

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#57

Post by jonplackett » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

pmyteh wrote: post #7

I've mostly worked in public-sector bureaucracies, not software companies, so my experiences won't line up exactly. In each case, the rule has been strictly pro-rata. I've generally felt that the company has had the good end of that deal, especially for the higher fractions (0.6/0.8 of full time): productivity seems to me to be non-linear, and trading off the end-of-the-week burnout for a little more payroll admin an…

I agree. I work 0.8 time (4 days a week) in the UK and am paid pro rata.

I think it balances out well, even aside from the fairness question.

It costs my employer benefits and admin, but they probably get quite close to the same amount of work as 1.0 because many people working 1.0 waste 0.2 of their time anyway.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#58

Post by tsss » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #25

Remember the downside: Knowledge sharing and communication. Think of a company going from 1 to 2 people. You go from the entire app in 1 persons head, to having to communicate and talk about decisions. There is a reason solo founders can do some really good things. Now imagine going from 5 to 10 people. The communication web of the two are different. 4 possible communication points vs 9. What about meetings and discu…

As the company gets bigger this becomes less of an issue because there is communication overhead anyway. And don't forget the other side of the coin: As you increase the number of employees you decrease the risk of a bad hire and similarly the risk of knowledge gaps when an employee leaves. There are already so many inefficiencies; Even if two people each working 20h are less efficient than one person working 40h, this difference will be negligable.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#59

Post by sopooneo » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

pmyteh wrote: post #53

kova12 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not familiar with UK employment practices, but: do the businesses pay any benefits to part-time employees?

Benefits are a much smaller part of the package. Health coverage, for example, is nationally provided. For most of my employers, the main benefits would be vacation (which would be pro-rata), pension (ditto), and sick leave (effectively ditto, as it pays out based on actual salary). There are some much smaller fringe benefits (gym discounts, say) which would be given regardless of hours worked, but I'm not sure that…

One interesting thing about pro-rata vacation for anyone thinking about going to part time: you still get exactly the same number of weeks off regardless.

The trick to that I will leave as an exercise to the reader. It's something I was thrilled to discover by accident.

Re: Ask HN: How do you scale salary for part-time work?

#60

Post by tsss » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

purrcat259 wrote: post #26

matthewmacleod wrote: post #16

I would advise you to just make it pro-rata. Don't fiddle around and worry about the relative pocket-change of overheads. You will save yourself lots of headaches, and my experience is that you will get more value out of two employees working 20 hours a week than you will out of one employee working 40 hours. It all evens out in the end. Aside: I really want to encourage you to do this. In my previous job, I went to…

Hey, I have a few questions if you don't mind I am working 30 hour work week. I recently switched jobs and I consider myself a strong candidate. In nearly all of my interviews, as soon as I mentioned wishing to work 30 hours (because I want to have time to sharpen my skills in my other 10 hours, which I always sold as a positive feedback loop which helps me be more knowlegable at work), the HR admin/recruiter would g…

Your mistake was talking to an HR person. They are bureaucrats who understand nothing about our craft and only look for obvious reasons to disqualify you. Your goal is to say as little as possible and get past HR quickly to talk to an actual technical person who can make the appropriate trade-offs. You could be the next Donald Knuth and HR would still reject you for 4-day week because to them you look like [any other shmug + extra burocracy].