Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

news.ycombinator.com

51–60 of 73 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#51
post #35

We use OVH and Hetzner dedicated (2X providers, 5X data centers for redundancy). Our application is CPU bound and it's approximately 10X cheaper than AWS/MS/Google and 3-5X cheaper than Vultr and Digital Ocean. If you need a lot of CPU bare metal is vastly more cost effective. It's also a bit faster. Bare metal is only a little more work to set up if you're using orchestration and provisioning tools. We use Chef and…

Are you managing the OVH and Hetzner hosts (provisioning) by hand, using general-purpose tools (Terraform etc.), or tools you've built custom against the providers' APIs?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#52
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you're running everything else serverless and have no compute time at all? I know a VOD training service runs serverless with videos on S3 and they're very successful.

Bandwidth on S3 costs something like 50x what I'm usually paying for bandwidth (Hetzner etc.) or 5x what you'll get from smaller cloud providers. You can be successful on AWS, but you're leaving money on the table, and for relatively commodity services it's just a question of time before a competitor realise they can do the same with much better margins and lower prices elsewhere. If your hosting is a small portion o…

The "commodity" distinction feel very significant here. Parent mentioned training videos, so probably very much not commodity. If you're selling something at $10/unit, it doesn't matter if your bandwidth costs are ¢0.05 or ¢2.5/unit. You're technically leaving money on the table, yes, but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#53
I've been saved a few times over the years by being able to "put hands" on the physical hard drives containing the data.

Example: a RAID1 setup, 2 drives. The drives used were literally made one after the other: the serial numbers were sequential. When 1 drive failed, the other drive failed too, at very nearly the same time.

Take drive out, mirror using ddrescue (took a long time) with retry, there was 32kb of data lost out of 400+GB and we never even really discovered what it was - we figure it was either a corrupt image or a part of the installed OS that was not used (such as a man page or text document).

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#54
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bandwidth on S3 costs something like 50x what I'm usually paying for bandwidth (Hetzner etc.) or 5x what you'll get from smaller cloud providers. You can be successful on AWS, but you're leaving money on the table, and for relatively commodity services it's just a question of time before a competitor realise they can do the same with much better margins and lower prices elsewhere. If your hosting is a small portion o…

The "commodity" distinction feel very significant here. Parent mentioned training videos, so probably very much not commodity. If you're selling something at $10/unit, it doesn't matter if your bandwidth costs are ¢0.05 or ¢2.5/unit. You're technically leaving money on the table, yes, but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.

> but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.

If you want to avoid infrastructure complexity, I'd go for dedicated hosting most of the time. Most of my past clients have ended up paying for more hours on operations for AWS setups than for dedicated. AWS and similar tends to force a lot of ceremony, some of which is good, but a lot of which is unnecessary on dedicated setups or on premises setups.

But yes, if your costs per unit are that low, I've typically told clients it largely depends on what they're most comfortable with. Some then pick AWS and it's a perfectly good choice.

What I'm seeing though, is that a lot of people pick AWS without first pricing out the options, and then later end up with expensive migrations to get off it.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#55

Cost. Linode is cheaper than AWS if you are willing to do your own ops. Lack of vendor lock in. Yes, AWS provides load balancing. When you look at their offerings they hook you by offering thing their way. You can use AWS messaging or run Rabbit. Many people start to adopt AWS since they are deployed there rather than thinking about doing things on their own.

+1 to vendor lock-in. Being an AWS shop can start feeling like being a Windows shop in the 90s... it can creep up on you. You mostly have an open source app and slowly start acruing bits of AWS only functionality. A bit of SQS here... S3 here... Lambda there.

Before you know it your giant app is stuck on proprietary infra and core business functionality involves paying a significant tax to keep things operational.

I’m a big fan of hosted open source for this reason. But those hosts too have incentives to sell you proprietary “value add” functionality.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "commodity" distinction feel very significant here. Parent mentioned training videos, so probably very much not commodity. If you're selling something at $10/unit, it doesn't matter if your bandwidth costs are ¢0.05 or ¢2.5/unit. You're technically leaving money on the table, yes, but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.

> but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity. If you want to avoid infrastructure complexity, I'd go for dedicated hosting most of the time. Most of my past clients have ended up paying for more hours on operations for AWS setups than for dedicated. AWS and similar tends to force a lot of ceremony, some of which is good, but a lot of which is unnecessary on dedicated setups or on premises…

Yes, of course. "Added complexity" was meant in the context of already having decided that the AWS ecosystem is valuable (parent mentioned running serverless, so presumably that is the case).

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#57

Do you Uber to work everyday? I don't. I use it occasionally but most of the time I drive my car to work. Cloud is best for handling spike workloads, not day to day.

Hah. I think that's a pretty good example in other ways, too. Uber is losing money hand over fist- if you really want to be driven to work everyday, they are by far the cheapest way to get that done, presumably because they are willing to lose that money.

Uber is trying to pull the same trick AWS did. I mean, I don't know if AWS was bleeding money at first, but in 2008, they had pretty good prices. Hard to compete with. I tried. But the thing is, especially their bandwidth prices? to this day, they are "okay, if it's 2008" I mean, north of ten cents per gigabyte transfer is kind of a lot.

(even in 2008, their bandwidth prices weren't great. I mean, they weren't bad, but their bandwidth prices were never really a lot below what you could get elsewhere. Their compute prices, on the other hand, were really competitive, if you scored them against the same ram at another Xen based VPS provider.)

This is an absolutely standard hosted infrastructure play. The standard VPS business model is to break into the market with really low prices, get a lot of customers, and then sit on those prices for as long as you can, while your costs fall, making your margins grow. I mean, most companies eventually are forced to lower prices again, so you get this cycle of high growth/no margin and then growing margin/bleeding customers.

(Interestingly, of late, the velocity with which hardware prices fall has decreased pretty dramatically, making this model less viable, or at least making it take longer.)

Amazon took this business model to the next level, in the way that VPS companies could only dream about. People voluntarily lock themselves into services on amazon that aren't particularly standardized, that would be quite difficult to shift onto competitors. This is very good for the amazon bottom line.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#58

Dedicated hosting is much better bang for your buck, especially for bandwidth. If you do something like video streaming and have relatively predictable loads, I've found that you have to pay at least an order of magnitude more with public cloud compared to dedicated servers on OVH or Datapacket. Maxing out a 2gbps server on Datapacket would cost you just $320/month for 648 TB of outgoing bandwidth monthly, versus at…

> Dedicated hosting is much better bang for your buck

Wow no way. If you've got the resources, racking your own servers is cheaper in the long term, and a huge waste of money if you have wildly varying traffic numbers throughout the day.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#59
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the numbers here, but I'm pretty sure the same idea applies for serverless. If you have a predictable load, you can always find a much cheaper alternative once you pass a certain threshold. The cloud is never about cost, it's about flexibility.

Predictable or flat/consistent? If my load is negligible in US weekends and outside of business hours, that's a factor of 2 or 3 you can theoretically save over baseline=peak with some "cloud on demand" service. It's not an order of magnitude, but it's something. Probably not worth the effort, for most, though, and I have no idea if "dedicated box" services can approximate something similar.

If you have a small number of requests over a large period, serverless is cheaper (that includes an api that is idle most of the time and peaks at a very high rate occasionally).

But once you go live and start to grow, there is a point where the lambda cost equals the instance price. And with an instance, you can almost always do a lot more than that number. Again, that will work if your requests are predictable enough that you can see this number consistently over a large period, say, every week at least.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud?

#60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "commodity" distinction feel very significant here. Parent mentioned training videos, so probably very much not commodity. If you're selling something at $10/unit, it doesn't matter if your bandwidth costs are ¢0.05 or ¢2.5/unit. You're technically leaving money on the table, yes, but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.

> but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity. If you want to avoid infrastructure complexity, I'd go for dedicated hosting most of the time. Most of my past clients have ended up paying for more hours on operations for AWS setups than for dedicated. AWS and similar tends to force a lot of ceremony, some of which is good, but a lot of which is unnecessary on dedicated setups or on premises…

> AWS and similar tends to force a lot of ceremony

Oh if that isn’t a perfect description of AWS I don’t know what is. Every time I look at AWS, that’s what I discover.

Post reply on HN