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Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

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Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#51
I went cold turkey sometime in about 2011 or 2012. The only reason I did it was because I was finishing college at the time, and I was afraid that I was losing the ability to rewire my brain on a muscle-memory level. It was a pain in the ass; writing papers on a deadline using a keyboard with which you are not familiar can be incredibly frustrating.

I tried to mimic the programs we used when I was in elementary school to learn the keyboard - start with getting the home row keys under muscle memory, then expand outward slowly from there. I would mindlessly (and slowly, and often incorrectly) transcribe TV shows as I watched Netflix, which helped a bit.

The thing that made the biggest difference was buying a keyboard cover [1] (as opposed to trying to re-arrange the keys on my Macbook Pro and not having the right home key nubs). The keyboard cover really paid for itself; it made the whole learning process way, way easier.

I guess it also helps that macOS makes it incredibly easy to swap between keyboard mappings. It takes all of 5 seconds to add the Dvorak keyboard and a quick shortcut to swap between Qwerty and Dvorak (I use cmd-opt-ctrl-space). (I have to keep Qwerty around for things like Blizzard and Steam games, and Steam itself, which often don't understand virtual layout mappings)

On the other hand, whenever I set up Windows, it takes about an hour or two to figure out how to set up a second keyboard layout, you can't change the keyboard shortcut to swap between them, and often when my computer goes to sleep, the layout is reverted. My Google-fu is pretty strong, and I still have an incredibly frustrating time re-learning how to set it up again. I don't if that's others' experience, but I hate going through the process.

It does get easier. You're retraining your brain to do something very fundamental. One piece of advice I'd have is that if you're getting so much anxiety that you're avoiding it - change your methods. Maybe it means going back for a day while you think of a new plan for learning. Don't wear yourself out over an extracurricular activity; it's just not worth it. Also: I don't know if there's any scientific proof that Dvorak is any faster or better or easier, so I'd say if that's the reason you're switching, well, you may end up disappointed.

Bonus: have you ever seen that Vim learning curve picture [2]? Yeah, the first part of that graph is about 3x more difficult using Dvorak. ("hjkl are for movement and it makes sense because they're all next to each other" etc etc etc). Still worth it IMO, though.

EDIT: It's crazy that I struggle to type meaningful sentences in Qwerty on a keyboard these days, but I still type in Qwerty on phone keyboards. I even tried to use Dvorak on the phone once and it was basically impossible - it's almost like it's a completely separate stored muscle memory in your brain.

1: http://kbcovers.com/dvorak-keyboard-cover/ 2: http://www.thejach.com/imgs/vim_learning.jpg

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#52
post #21

I've tried a few times but given up each time. I learned to touch type QWERTY at age 13 and use it at well over 100wpm. I'm in my early 30s and I think I'm stuck with it now. Even after living in Germany for ~10 years, I still buy and import US keyboards and laptops so that the enter key (and backslash) are in the right place. (It's not just mapping - the physical buttons are laid out differently.) I read about these…

I'm pretty much in the same situation, after 20+ years on QWERTZ (German here ;) ), I can't even imagine using a layout that's so different. I already go borderline crazy when some programs/games change the layout to US QWERTY and a dozen or so keys stop doing what they're supposed to do.

Imho it's nearly impossible to retrain decades of muscle memory and end up with the same efficiency/speed without spending a comparable amount of time to train muscle memories on the new layout. Sadly we humans only have a limited lifespan, so I rather stick to what I know and already good at.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#53
When I started my study (Artificial Intelligence), I came to the conclusion that yes, I was going to spend a lot of time behind a keyboard, and yes, switching might be worth it. At that point, I looked into possible alternatives for QWERTY and decided to try Colemak, mostly because of its closeness to QWERTY which I knew pretty well then.

I went in cold turkey, which was probably easier than for Dvorak, but still a pain. Anyway, after a couple of days I could type slowly again, and from that point on (taking notes using my laptop daily), the situation improved.

After a shorter than expected time, I was up to my old typing speed again. The downside: I lost my ability to type blindly on a QWERTY keyboard. On Macs, smartphones and linux computers this is not a problem as switching them to Colemak is trivial when I have to use them longer, but for Windows computers it is occasionally annoying. I do have a portable executable that switches such a system on a USB-stick I carry on my key ring, but it's still a pain.

Anyway, the end result is that I type faster now then I did, and the smaller distance your fingers travel does result in a more comfortable typing experience. I would definitely make the switch again with the knowledge I have now. That said, it's probably only worth it if you actually type a lot.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#54

I've always felt like I should switch to Dvorak, but because of hjkl I never ended up doing it. What I DID do was get rid of my qwerty bad habits. I could touch type fairly well, but I just had some bad habits (typing b with the wrong hand, only using the left shift, looking when I type numbers). Around 6 months ago my USB thinkpad-like keyboard died. Turns out if you shock the shit out of it with static electricity…

Thanks for the recommendation! My keyboard is getting pretty old, and I've been looking at the Keyboard.io because of how it uses your thumbs, but you can't get one yet :(

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#55
I started with Dvorak in 2008. I went full tilt and printed and cut out a keyboard template and glued it on my brand new macbook. The keyboard remained sticky for the remainder of its life. It took me 2 - 3 weeks to get accustomed to Dvorak, and from then on I’ve been able to touch type.

I’d imagine it would be hell to have to unlearn the qwerty muscle memory.

tl;dr: I learned to touchtype thanks to Dvorak

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#56

I made my own layout years ago. I'm french and for years I typed on an azerty keyboard. When I switched to Qwerty, I found I really disliked the position of the m key. So I changed it. Then I changed a few more keys so I could have easier access to them for programming. All the punctuation as well as putting some common unicode glyphs on altgr. This is the end result: Drix EU Latin. https://github.com/jleclanche/dotf…

That is similar to (if bit more extreme) what I've done too. It is truly baffling how bad European layouts are, especially for programming etc. But because my native language(s) have couple of accented characters, I couldn't just switch to US layout. So I ended up transplanting those characters to US layout, which required shuffling few things around. Overall I'm pretty happy with the end result, even if it is still "just qwerty". Some things could be tweaked bit more in altgr layer but that is fairly minor thing. It is especially nice that I can fairly easily use US layout if necessary.

http://zokier.net/stuff/nappaimisto.png looks like this old picture is somewhat out of date, but shows still the basic idea.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#57
post #13

For the context, I have been using the Dvorak layout since February 2009, so nearly 8 years. My keyboard is the TypeMatrix 2030[0]. The first 4 to 6 months where really hard, having the feeling to go back 10 years or more in the past with respect to typing speed. But after that, I improved a lot my typing speed and I am now to a point where I type as fast as I can formulate the sentences in my head. What is impressiv…

Is there any keyboard similar to the TypeMatrix (for ease of use and helping with RSIs) with mechanical switches?

https://olkb.com/

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#58
I switched a long time ago from qwertz to de-ergo, I did not know dvorak at the time, but it was a very profound and interesting experience to see the wiring in the brain to change. After some years I changed from de-ergo to NEO[1] and I am still using it and will probably never look back. Having most of the important programming characters (\/{}*?()-:@) on the home row is the best thing that ever happened to me.

This is of course limited to the German language.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Neo

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#59
post #56

I made my own layout years ago. I'm french and for years I typed on an azerty keyboard. When I switched to Qwerty, I found I really disliked the position of the m key. So I changed it. Then I changed a few more keys so I could have easier access to them for programming. All the punctuation as well as putting some common unicode glyphs on altgr. This is the end result: Drix EU Latin. https://github.com/jleclanche/dotf…

That is similar to (if bit more extreme) what I've done too. It is truly baffling how bad European layouts are, especially for programming etc. But because my native language(s) have couple of accented characters, I couldn't just switch to US layout. So I ended up transplanting those characters to US layout, which required shuffling few things around. Overall I'm pretty happy with the end result, even if it is still…

Hah, nice! Do you use dead accents? I found it super useful to put all the dead `´^¨° on my altgr-shift-12345 in order to make any accented letter I might want. I use that instead of éèä etc as there's a bunch of variations of it in french, but I don't need them often enough.

This also proved really useful when I started writing in swedish and had quick access to å without having to switch layout.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#60
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is similar to (if bit more extreme) what I've done too. It is truly baffling how bad European layouts are, especially for programming etc. But because my native language(s) have couple of accented characters, I couldn't just switch to US layout. So I ended up transplanting those characters to US layout, which required shuffling few things around. Overall I'm pretty happy with the end result, even if it is still…

Hah, nice! Do you use dead accents? I found it super useful to put all the dead `´^¨° on my altgr-shift-12345 in order to make any accented letter I might want. I use that instead of éèä etc as there's a bunch of variations of it in french, but I don't need them often enough. This also proved really useful when I started writing in swedish and had quick access to å without having to switch layout.

No, I made the principal decision to have no dead keys. Your idea to have both dead and non-dead variations seems pretty neat, that didn't occur to me when I was doing my layout. I might steal that if I'll end up reworking the layout at some point.

Funnily enough, Å was the one key I pushed from unmodified access to altgr layer because I have so little use for it :)

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