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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#491

Post by gremlinunderway »

PeterisP wrote: post #466
makeitdouble wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume in these languages you can get away with either not using the name, or going for a neutral form (same as when you don't know who you're speaking to) French has that gendered structure too, with workarounds to manage uncertainty.

That assumption isn't valid. In some languages in order to say anything about anything you have to apply either the masculine or feminine form of the verbs and adjectives, so there's no way around picking one of the two, so if you don't know, you must guess or assume. And if we look at languages with three grammatical genders, for some of them the neutral option is exclusive to inanimate objects, and using these neut…

But aren't we talking about form fields? When would you absolutely need a gendered title from someone in a form field so that you could refer to them in the third person?

In any case, I understand your point about there not being many options for gendered pronouns in some languages, but you're also assuming that there aren't movements to change that. French is a good example where even though its heavily gendered, things are evolving to the point that Le Robert even includes 'iel' as a pronom personnel [1]. Sure its use is contentious, but so are gendered pronouns even in English are still contentious for some people, but it exists and people do use it.

[1] https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/iel

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#492

Post by marcus_holmes »

hibbelig wrote: post #426
marcus_holmes wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that First Name and Last Name do not correspond to Family Name and Given Name, which is actually what is desired (you can start an email to me as "Hello ", and be reasonably sure of avoiding insult. You can't do that with "Hello ", you will definitely insult some people). However, I don't do this. If I want someone's name so I can talk to them, I just ask them "what do you want us to call you?" with a si…

In German, you have to ask the customer whether they want to be addressed in the formal way “Sehr geehrter Herr Schmidt” (esteemed Mr. Schmidt might be an approximate translation, of course this sounds totally off in English) or the informal way “Hallo Paul”, or maybe they prefer “Lieber Paul” (dear Paul) or even “Lieber Herr Schmidt”! Note that the formal and informal ways use different parts of the name. So if the…

I know that human Germans have problems with knowing when to "du" someone, so how the hell is a website is supposed to know?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#493

Post by ecesena »

I would call it “first” and “last” and, therefore, put “first” first.

(I’m very serious, I thought a lot about this because as a non-native speaker I often get confused with expressions like “given”, “surname”, etc. don’t make me think please)

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#494

Post by ecesena »

ecesena wrote: post #493

I would call it “first” and “last” and, therefore, put “first” first. (I’m very serious, I thought a lot about this because as a non-native speaker I often get confused with expressions like “given”, “surname”, etc. don’t make me think please)

And if -by chance- you have the power of change immigration forms, I will forever be grateful.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#495

Post by dgb23 »

RadiozRadioz wrote: post #476
dgb23 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be one of the best design systems I ever looked at...

As a UK citizen, I am routinely impressed by our government website. It is one of the few things this country does right, in my opinion. I know some people who work on the UI, and they put painstaking attention into every tiny detail to make things as accessible as possible. The goal is that it should be universally navigable by anyone, regardless of technical competence, disability or background.

As a web developer I’m impressed by the consistency, practical beauty and the respect of users.

We as technical nerds often forget how people actually interact with technology and assume way too much attention, familiarity and ability to understand UI patterns.

We often think of accessibility in terms of screen readers, but that’s just a fraction of the story…

Add varied devices, slow connections, very bad performance etc.

I’m craving for things like simplicity, performance, robustness and accessibility.

This looks like a holistic, carefully crafted design system. I’m looking forward to study it.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#496

Post by nsonha »

ghaff wrote: post #335
johneth wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GOV.UK design system[1] agrees with you: > "Use single or multiple fields depending on your user’s needs. Not everyone’s name fits the first-name, last-name format. Using multiple name fields mean there’s more risk that a person’s name will not fit the format you’ve chosen and that it is entered incorrectly." and > "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially…

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

So how would you fill this email template:

> Dear ,

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#497

Post by nsonha »

alentred wrote: post #394
alexvitkov wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you plan to only do English forever that's acceptable, but there's _a lot_ of languages where you need to know someone's gender to be able to use their name in a sentence. Weird thing to look over in a thread about internationalization

If this is why a website or a form asks for it, and there is no way around it, better just ask for it directly ("How would you prefer to be addressed? He/him, she/her, or neutral?") instead of a choice of 25 historical titles.

What if they want to be addressed by those titles? Mr/Ms is always in the list so what is to be complained about here?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#498

Post by wageslave99 »

Could you put the surname with uppercase letters? That's a convention used in France that I think we should all use.

In Spain, where we have two surnames (first one from father and first one from mother in either order), that would make easier for foreigners to understand that our surname is not the last word. e.g. José Luis GARCÍA LÓPEZ means García López is his surname, while José Luis is a composed name (like JFK where John Fitzgerald were his two names).

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#499

Post by shafyy »

rob74 wrote: post #211
shafyy wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country is that? And how would you address a person called Martina Müller in a written document? "Sehr geehrte Müller?" Or is it not a German-speaking country you're referring to?

Even "sehr geehrte Müller" already includes the gender (it would be "sehr geehrter" for a man), so if you want to avoid the whole situation, you have to go informal, and indeed, I have received a lot of emails recently which start with simply "Hallo [firstName] [lastName]" (which I guess is still more formal then only "Hallo [firstName]").

Sure, but in a more formal setting you wouldn't address somebody with "Hallo Martina". So my question is how would you avoid the Herr or Frau in a formal setting?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#500

Post by brigandish »

sethammons wrote: post #220
brigandish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't refer to yourself in private by your own name?

What you are suggesting is talking in 3rd person. It is odd when someone does that.

To oneself, in private, you never or have never referred to yourself by your own name?
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