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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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491–500 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#491

Read "Amusing Ourselves to Death" by Neil Postman. You will realize that Social Media is designed in such a way intentionally to draw toxicity from society. No technology is neutral. Technology gives and technology takes away. Medium is the message. Communication evolved because of the medium. For every evolution, it gives something and it takes away something. From oral communication to the printing press to telegra…

> Social media such as twitter, for example, everyone now has a voice (what it gives), but with its char limit (what it takes) doesn't give critical thinking and rational debate a highlight, therefore it spirals down into madness.

Twitter has a hard, small limit. Most other platforms either have no limit, or the limit is fairly large.

The problem is, people don't use it.

Worse, those that do use it are ridiculed, or their words are ignored (TL;DR anyone?)...

Thinking about this, I wonder if any of it has to do with people's "inner monologue" that was discussed yesterday here on HN? If you didn't see it, the gist was that there are some people who don't have such a monologue, and it came as a surprise to one person. Similarly, those without such a monologue are often surprised that others have it; one person commented that they often wished that the voiceover of characters in a movie, expressing their inner thoughts, was a real thing - and were shocked to find out that for most people - it is!

Anyhow - does this play into how people write online? Do they tend to write less or smaller messages, because their inner monologue is too loud or constant? Do those without such monologue write more thoughtful and longer posts? Then I think of myself; I have an inner monologue, but I tend to write long things (case in point - this post?) - but I don't find my inner monologue a burden.

But some do - I know I have read of people who either must always have some noise around them to drown out their "inner monologue", or if left in silence, even for small moments, will declare themselves "bored", perhaps because their inner monologue isn't perceived as interesting (whereas I and others have no problems thinking and pondering things, in silence, with no boredom)...?

Does this effect how people compose and type their messages? Does it help or hinder understanding? Does it facilitate or does it block meaningful conversations?

Twitter may have tapped into something that was always there to begin with, and in essence has helped foster that communication style - making it acceptable widely - conversation as "sound bites" - which has perhaps led to our present situation.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. > Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong [...] group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior. Funny,…

> Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. How is "I don't consider you human" not an extreme position?

> How is "I don't consider you human" not an extreme position?

Most bigots do not believe that.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#493
Everyone in the anglosphere is always online and can talk to each other now. Meanwhile our culture is pretty polarized. Conversations that could never be had in the time of top down privately owned broadcast & newspaper media are now unavoidable.

I don't think it's a "problem" and I don't think there is or should be a technocratic solution.

This is new normal, where political struggle has evolved into a prolonged people's posting war, and civility is not respected. This is freedom of expression, and it's a reflection of ourselves and society, you can break the mirror if it upsets you but it won't change the underlying truth.

It's probably going to be like this for a while, and that's okay.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. > Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong [...] group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior. Funny,…

> Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. How is "I don't consider you human" not an extreme position?

The trouble is, not everyone is saying that. A few people here and there are, but what about some mode nuance things? For example, what if someone says they're fine with trans-people and think everyone should live their lives whoever they want, but trans M2F shouldn't participate in professional sports because it's not fair.

That's an incredibly polarizing statement, and one who makes it is immediately labeled as a bigot. Some go as far as to say such an individual is "denying trans people exist."

There is a lot to unpack there, and people can have reasonable debates about both sides of that statement. Adam Conover and Joe Rogan have had such a conversation (it's a really good episode of the Rogan podcast), but many people refuse to even listen to it because they consider Rogan a bigot/alt-right-adjacent/etc.

You have to be careful because there is so much room in the details and someone not accepting 100% of x world view doesn't immediately make them a terrible human being.

In the past, controversial views converge over time. Heidegger talked about extreme ideas as a thesis, those trying to keep things as they are as antithesis, and eventually society moves together with some kind of synthesis. All that feels like it's been thrown out the window for extreme left or extreme right ideology.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#495
post #56

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

We found a lot of lies during the UK election last month. Not difference in opinions, not beliefs about whay may or will happen, easily proven lies, posted across community forums, copied and pasted to other ones, and repeated in an increasing cresendo People then believe those lies, they repeat them, and even if they don't those lies sink into their subconcious and change their behavior, not necessarily today or tom…

I have trouble seeing responding as much of a fix, although it depends a bit on the platform. On Reddit, Facebook, and the like, there is a pattern where you have highly upvoted/liked posts, where the top comment is about how the thing is obviously wrong.

Most people just glance at headlines, image, or whatever, and don't read articles or examine comments. Those comments about it being wrong only help inform the subset of people who bother to look at comments.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#496

(a) Bigotry is already normalized in the United States. The president is a bigot and almost half the country voted for him. This is another negative effect of deplatforming: if you live in a liberal city and only frequent Reddit/Facebook, you live in an echo chamber where you don't have any visibility into what's normal. (b) The legitimacy of a platform is based on what is said there, not the other way around. You vi…

What did he do to call him a bigot? Enforcing immigration laws? Banning travel from countries where we can't vet people properly? Declining to have the military pay for people's sexual reassignment surgeries? Not letting people on welfare earn citizenship? Restricting a refugee system that was being abused? One of the sources of polarization is that the definition of hate and racism and bigotry seems to be broad and…

If you're asking this question after everything over the past four years, you are either:

a.) Not asking the question in good faith

b.) Weapons-grade stupid

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#497
post #358
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What video game forums compared at all to 4chans /b/? Every where banned you for gore, child porn, harassment, encouraging suicide. I really don't think you should be trying to normalize 4chan as thats just the way the internet is.

We definitely had different experiences, then! I would say most forums, even a lot of the mainstream ones, tolerated some level of 4channess. Facepunch forums ~2009 was the first time I thought "wait, are these guys actually Nazis or just think it's hilarious to act like they are?" Stickpage.com forums ~2005 taught me an important lesson in not clicking URLs from domains I don't trust -- ESPECIALLY if they end in 'he…

People messing around with goatse pics is pretty different then what 4 chan is or was. The internet in general was nothing like the 4chan community.

Discord is very new. I think the point of the post is the current internet has gotten worse. The web wasn't like /b/,its becoming like that though.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#498
There should be boundaries to what is considered respectable opinions that exclude both the extreme right and the extreme left. If people do not express these off-limits opinions they should be considered respectable and treated as such in discussions. An example of off-limits extreme right opinion is anything promoting racial or ethnic inferiority of one group or another. An example of off-limits extreme left opinion would be attempts to stake all differences in society on discrimination. Anything less extreme than that should be considered fair game in the market of ideas. The extreme left and right ideologies have cost tens of millions of people their lives in the twentieth century and should not be considered respectable. Anything less extreme might, depending on the circumstances, actually be a solution to some problem that is right now occurring somewhere in the world and should at least be considered.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#499

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that.

It has never worked. Put yourself in the position of someone who is being maliciously harassed by trolls and getting no help from anyone else. It's like telling a weak kid that is being bullied to just ignore it; the reality is that bullies are determined and tend to escalate rather than abandon their aggressive behavior. At best they will move on to picking on some other weaker person.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#500
post #421

> Before, around 2010-2012, people who disagreed would usually leave it at that and walk away respectfully. I don't know what internet you were using, but this does not match my experience. The internet has been a dickfighting playground since at least the 90s. The biggest difference is that comment threads are the majority of how people create content on the internet now and they weren't before.

> The biggest difference is that comment threads are the majority of how people create content on the internet now and they weren't before.

Were you not around for newsgroup flame-wars of the early 90s (and probably long before that, if you were among the lucky few that had access)...?

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