Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#491

Post by stuaxo » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

mcgrath_sh wrote: post #404

exelius wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Formality of environment need not extend to dress code. Remember, dress codes are used against women (by men telling the woman how she should be dressing) far more often than they are men. You can have a formal office without a formal dress code. Yesterday I wore jeans, a t-shirt, chucks and a blazer to work at a formal company. I only wear the blazer because I am physically small and look young, so I feel it enhance…

It does help though. It doesn't need to be overly formal, but putting on nice slacks and a nice shirt with dress shoes helps you go "I am at work. This is different than when I wear my casual clothes. These people are my colleagues and not my friends/family." I'm not saying that it is solely down to the clothes, but that small bit of separation helps.

Maybe it is a generational or just personal thing.

I feel restricted / unnatural and generally unhappy if I have to wear those sort of clothes.

I've noticed a lot of people in the current generation wearing more formal clothes at work, I guess this is a cycle, and us 40ish year olds in T-shirts were doing the opposite of those who came before.

Honestly I find it weird to hear what seems like quite young guys on the train to work having a conversation about the best shoe polish.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#492

Post by stuaxo » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 9:00 AM UTC

serb348 wrote: post #258

watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Zizek argues that personal/cultural/cool work environment is for oppression: http://www.businessinsider.com/slavoj-zizek-says-your-office...

Yep, but then so is enforcement of stuff like business casual attire, it's just more obvious.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#493

Post by ionised » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 10:06 AM UTC

fwefwwfe wrote: post #241

munificent wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a red flag? Some people just want a career, not a new set of friends.

Sure, but a whole team/office where no one has lunch together ever?

I've been at this role for just over a year now and I've eaten lunch with my teammates maybe two or three times.

Firstly, I spend all day with these people as it is and while they are perfectly easy to get on with and have a laugh with, my lunch time is for me to eat and catch up on my reading.

I really dislike cafeterias in general. They're too noisy, bright, uncomfortable and I would much prefer to just go and eat in peace and quiet.

I've been out with these people like a dozen times for meals, nights out leaving parties etc. but once or twice a week? That's way too much. I have things I like to do in the evenings, like exercising, playing learning guitar or improving my development skills. I also have a partner I wish not to neglect.

I'm totally fine keeping my work and colleagues separate from the rest of my life.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#494

Post by ionised » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 10:09 AM UTC

bethly wrote: post #476

csorrell wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that in an attempt to avoid one type of toxic environment, you've gone to another extreme. What you're really screening for is an environment where everyone is similar to yourself.

In that they don't think women should have to deal with sexism: damn skippy. Existing in an environment where some people think women should have to deal with sexism sucks. You don't get to be inclusive of both sexists and me, because their "beliefs" are about my actual life. My life is significantly better if the dudes around me will step up when sexism happens and deal with it without me having to even be involved.…

> You don't really think I should be inclusive of everyone: you just don't think sexism should be allowed to be a deal-breaker. Don't worry, if you want to work at a company that's inclusive of sexists that's way easier to find.

You're projecting and making a lot of assumptions about the person you are replying to.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#495

Post by qb45 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 11:15 AM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #465

astrodev wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the remark about antifa was meant to be taken literally. Of course, no one will put it in the job description. Do you think it's easy to be supportive of the current US president, supportive of Brexit and sceptical of climate alarmism while working in tech (or in academia, for that matter)? I do not find it easy at all.

Not if that job relies on being able to evaluate evidence or change your beliefs on the basis of observed outcomes. But that's not because of value-less "political beliefs"; it's because people who prioritize partisanship over evidence, on either side of the political divide, are going to have problems in environments that reward responding to feedback. Anti-capitalist anarchists who don't believe in supply-and-deman…

Evidence and outcomes?

There is evidence that current eco-policies are pushing industry and hence economic power into the hands of an insane totalitarian regime and nobody seems to be discussing possible outcomes of that.

There is evidence that H1B has been abused by body shops for a very long time now and nobody seemed to care until some Americans really got pissed and partisan about it.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#496

Post by tzs » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:37 PM UTC

qb45 wrote: post #189

tzs wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers) Get one of these kitchen timers [1]. Set it to about 25 minutes. When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office. Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step. When you wish to visit the bathr…

When you are self-conscious doing a silly show of yourself for rationalization will only give you something more to be self-conscious about. Merely taking a walk once in a while would pass and is a good idea for other reasons, but this clock thing definitely crosses the line. I also don't believe that everybody would jump on this bandwagon and totally share the sentiment expressed in sibling comment by maccard.

The clock is to remind you to take a walk. To prevent the bad effects of prolonged sitting you need to get up and move about every 30 or so minutes.

Most people can easily, effortlessly, sit much longer than that before they start to feel stiff or restless and so naturally take a break. It is very easy to unintentionally end up sitting too long.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#497

Post by icco » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

bethly wrote: post #447

VLM wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that last observation very interesting. Decades ago, my Reserves unit was extremely diverse compared to every IT environment I've ever worked in since then. I had a female sergeant, a black SFC platoon leader... In my civilian career I had exactly one female superior and I worked with exactly three black people, ever, so far, as numerous people have noted IT is super non-diverse. The prevailing strategy in the…

I suspect part of the disconnect is that not all the ex-mil folks I've worked with were coming from support units: overall the military still has a lower percentage of women than software development does, and it was even lower when some of the people I was working with were enlisted. Also, although as a civilian I would never make such generalizations, it does seem that different branches attract different kinds of…

> Military hiring, of taking all comers over certain transparently-published bars and then turfing out bad actors and training the rest, is a strategy I'm not sure any tech company has tried. I've long wanted to compare our interviewing strategies to "random" to see if our screening actually contributing anything to outcomes.

This is an amazing point. I've never really thought about it before. Thanks!

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#498

Post by qb45 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #496

qb45 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are self-conscious doing a silly show of yourself for rationalization will only give you something more to be self-conscious about. Merely taking a walk once in a while would pass and is a good idea for other reasons, but this clock thing definitely crosses the line. I also don't believe that everybody would jump on this bandwagon and totally share the sentiment expressed in sibling comment by maccard.

The clock is to remind you to take a walk. To prevent the bad effects of prolonged sitting you need to get up and move about every 30 or so minutes. Most people can easily, effortlessly, sit much longer than that before they start to feel stiff or restless and so naturally take a break. It is very easy to unintentionally end up sitting too long.

You posted this in response to some woman being self-conscious about men knowing when she is going to the restroom and I swear it sounds like your intention was to provide her with a disguise to solve this problem of hers. And apparently I wasn't even the only one to interpret it that way.

It almost feels like you are doing the exact kind of post-rationalization I said is an unhealthy thing to do :)

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#499

Post by jshevek » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #494

bethly wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that they don't think women should have to deal with sexism: damn skippy. Existing in an environment where some people think women should have to deal with sexism sucks. You don't get to be inclusive of both sexists and me, because their "beliefs" are about my actual life. My life is significantly better if the dudes around me will step up when sexism happens and deal with it without me having to even be involved.…

> You don't really think I should be inclusive of everyone: you just don't think sexism should be allowed to be a deal-breaker. Don't worry, if you want to work at a company that's inclusive of sexists that's way easier to find. You're projecting and making a lot of assumptions about the person you are replying to.

Yes, thank you for commenting on this. There is a lot of this happening on this topic, being done by people who are otherwise clearly intelligent.

I find it interesting that this dynamic has so much in common with the deeply religious.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#500

Post by sqeaky » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #453

sqeaky wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just simplifying. I get that Basic is supposed to bring people together. I think the blood brothers things is a bit extreme for most but totally accurate for those unlucky few seeing combat directly. The majority of our armed forced sit in office chairs and man logistics records. FYI, I worked on a military base, and my Father and Mother were both military. I don't have conventional biases against it.

Basic training does a great many more things than bring people together. And I was also trying to simplify. I see no real need to get into this tangent and nitpick it to death. It isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand. Peace.

I totally agree with you. Because I only wrote 3 or 4 sentences I left most of what it does out. I only included it because I the mental image of a Drill Sargent acting like a drill Sargent on a software dev team was funny.

Peace.